Michelin XLs

Uh-oh, I might have to take Fastfrankie's side of the argument. I split two more today (maybe more, I only glanced at the passenger side). 40 psi and highway speeds - no problem and I'd run'em all day long. 12 psi and lots of sidewall flex and these are #2 and 3 that I've killed.

I'll post some pics tomorrow but I must say, be very picky when you buy these older surplus tires if you plan to use them.

On a side note, I also had an accessory drive belt issue today that forced me to drive home with no alternator and occasionally no power steering from up some nasty canyon at this old silver mine (we even found a stick of dynamite in one of the drill holes!). Spose it's time to carry some spares cuz they don't like revving up to a 4 wheel burnout in low-low.

Chris

Bummer Chris...sounds like a very tough day.

You don't think the heat and dry climate might have contributed to the failures. Kinda like a big oven.

Sounds like they got you home though. Bet a swamper wouldn't have gotten that far.

Seriously though, cracks or not, the XL's are tougher tires than you will get from Interco, BFG, Mickey Thompson, etc. These are rated for over 5000#. Most other tires of this size don't even get close to that rating.

Post of a pic or 2 of the carnage.

I'm sorry to hear that Chris. But, to reinforce what Kwai wrote I keep thinking about an airplane book I have read.

Ben Rich was a designer for Lockheed back in the Cold War. He helped design and build the U-2 and SR-71 along with the current Stealth fighter and many other planes. According to his book, they went out to your general area to do the first test of the U-2. They kept having trouble with the tires, fuel tank seals and canopy seals failing at super fast rates. They finally figured out it was the wind patterns bringing the crud from over LA right to the desert and it was breaking down the rubber.

The formula for the rubber parts was changed some and they also moved test locations. That is how that spot North of Las Vegas was first put to use according to the book.

My point is that sun, heat and airborn chemicals might be having the same bad effect on your tires. Of course, driving where you are at those low PSI's and on old used tires could be more than 1/2 of the problem too. I'm not trying to argue the X series of tires are perfect and never fail on their own because the do. Just pointing out some contributing factors.

If one had the unlimited funds to purchase Mitch. XLs brand new could they? Are they available to the public?

I sure hope it's not an environmental issue because I'd sure feel bad for any servicemen running any kind of rubber tire in Iraq right now.

My uneducated guess is it's fully from the tires being older and getting hard. Once I air down so low, the tires flex like mad and the sidewall rubber can't handle the abuse and let go.

Chris

You are probably correct Chris. After all, why did we all get surplus tires with tread left? Because the have a normal use experation date and when that came, out go the tires. But, the environment, especially the heat probably had an effect in some way or other.

You have also convinced me to go no lower that 20 psi on my XZL's from now on.

Where did you get that number from Tim?

I made it up. Remember how my truck couldn't climb that big hill the first day at WITC? I had all 4 tires at 80 psi. The first time I slide back down, I made sure I was in 4x4 and tried again. Then after the next slide down, I got out and actually locked the front hubs in. The next slide down is when Doug and Joe helped me lower the tires to 50 all around. The slide down after that and we put the tires at 20. The side walls barely flexed and I made it up the hill.

I figure Lucky has his tires where they flex a lot. His tires are coming apart, so 20 is where mine barely flex. Plus, I lowered them down to 15 that night and for the rest of the FE. The runs down the road to the water hole made them howl like crazy when they normally don't. I would rather have the tires last longer than be the first up every hill.

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Originally Posted by LuckyPabst

I sure hope it's not an environmental issue because I'd sure feel bad for any servicemen running any kind of rubber tire in Iraq right now.

My uneducated guess is it's fully from the tires being older and getting hard. Once I air down so low, the tires flex like mad and the sidewall rubber can't handle the abuse and let go.

Chris

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You don't have to worry about any service men using XL's in Iraq right now because the government got rid of all these tires because they are all old.

I don't think a "new" XL has been made since 2002. Thats 5 years ago..

I have two friends in the tire business - one sells commercial and truck tires only. The other is an ASE Master Tech of almost 20 years. Both say the same thing. Michelin tires are the absolute worst and they ALL start to develop dryrot/cracking within 2-3 years. I know this is true because I have seen Michelins on like new cars (2-4 years old) and they all have cracks...tiny but there. Ask any tire guy their opinion on Michelin tires - and I don't care if you think the Military ones are different than passenger tires...they use the same rubber and molds etc. I've come to the conclusion its either the actual rubber Michelin uses or the actual procedure in which the tires are made...

I just bought 4 new Power King SUper Tractions because I wasn't going to spend the same amount for 5-8 year old XL's that were sold off by the government and are on their way out. I don't care how many plies or weight amounts the tires are rated for. I turned down a local set for $200 ($50 a piece) that were manufactured in 2001 and had dryrot. Its not worth it to me...when I buy tires I want FRESH rubber...not tires that were supporting a 10,000 pound LAV vehicle outside in the hot sun in California on an army base for the past 7 years...naah I'll pass.

And for the record, I saw a set of XL's about a year ago that had less than 100 miles on them, were garage kept and were purchased through Michelin direct special order. The guy wanted a grand for all four. I go and look and all four had cracks...so that tells me no matter who has them, how old they are, mileage is insignificant, they ALL have it...and if someone says "mine have no cracks," they are either blind or lying to you. I've seen enough sets of XL's and have mounted and balanced enough tires in my life to know this is true...

Ok so lets say I don't want to run the Michelins, but want a tire similiar in size. At least 38" actual measurement tall. What are my tire choices in a radial tire?? Swampers, do they make a radial that tall? Anyone have any other tires they know of that will fit on a stock or 8" wheel??

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Originally Posted by Fastfrankie

You don't have to worry about any service men using XL's in Iraq right now because the government got rid of all these tires because they are all old.

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That's why I didn't specify "XL". My point was that I don't think extreme temps and low humidity are to blame for tire failure.

Funny thing is, I had the EXACT SAME problem today with an ooooolllldddd Michelin (XZN ???) 1100-20 on our forklift, that's hella dryrotted. It split radially from the center outward, just like the 3 XLs I've killed. Same deal, bouncing around enough to flex the sidewall real good and it gave out.

I'll get pics of the XLs in a little while but it's nothing exciting.



Chris

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Originally Posted by fisherman

...At least 38" actual measurement tall. What are my tire choices in a radial tire?? ...that will fit on a stock or 8" wheel??

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That's precisely why folks use the XL's and XZL's. Unfortunately, no other manufacturer makes a radial that's tall and narrow. The closest is a non-radial 38.5x11.00-16 S.S. Bogger rated at 2815 lbs.

Until another manufacturer makes a strong, tall and skinny tire, I'll buy XL's and XZL's from Michelin as long as I can get them. Even if they are made overseas. :o Besides, I've seen cracks in tires like Firestone's, Mickey Thompson's and others anyway.

I do have a "stickered" set of XZL's in the back of the barn that I'll have to check for cracks the next time I'm back there. I know there wasn't any when I bought them.

Todd, I don't know if they make all these tires in 38", but here are a couple good tires to look at:

Ground Hawg, 38x15.50R16LT, listed as 21/32 tread depth, 10.3 tread width, 37.56 overal diameter, for a 16x10-12 size rim.

McCreary Super Lug Tires, I know they make a 9.00x16, its only about 36" tall, not sure if they make any other sizes, but the 36" ones are pretty skinny. I have a set of 36" tall ones that will be going on the M-725. A really nice tire, I've been very happy and impressed with it.

Power King Super Traction, again I know they make a 36" tall tire for a 16" rim, not sure on 38" x 16. I have 4 used and 1 brand new 36" tall ones, fairly skinny. Good tire except for the dual solid zig-zag bar down the center makes them awful on the ice. Ran them on the 715 for a while though before I got my XL's, seems to be a pretty good tire.

Do the Michelins have a speed rating?

XLs - 62 mph
XZLs - 68 mph

From my understanding, you can still pick them up in Canada.

The first death - after much rumination I concluded that running low pressure (about 14 psi on this day) caused the sidewall to flex beyond its capacity and crack radially until the tube eventually failed. The extreme damage is from driving very fast with it completely out of air. Before this particular trip, the tire looked just like the 2 following pics. This is from March? I think:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...t/P3161341.jpg

The two that split yesterday - They looked "perfect" beforehand with the typical sidewall cracks near the wheel. I have no idea how much longer I can run these before the tube fails, luckily I have 3 more XLs sitting around:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...t/P8080207.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...t/P8080205.jpg

Just for fun, this is one of the other two tires that didn't split yet. These cracks only become apparent with the sidewall flexed. The rest of the tire looks just fine in this area - this is at 12 psi:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...t/P8080206.jpg

I'm in the same boat - I like the tall skinny tires and that's what keeps me buying the Michelins. If I could get something comparable for size and wear (that didnt' cost a grip), I'd probably give up on the XLs altogether.

Chris

The cause is global warming.

Honestly, I think humidity and altitude play a role in the rate at which the rubber deteriorates. Higher altitudes have more ultraviolet rays that will break down the rubber faster. High temps and low humidity cause the plasticizers in the rubber to evaporate faster. I have seen more ugly, severely rotted tires at dryer, higher elevations in Ca, NM and Co than I have seen in and around texas and oklahoma.

Not much data I know but it's the only real observations I got.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. cracks and all.

But I'm at relatively low elevation, these tires came from Tijuana (who knows where they were before that) and until January of this year, they were stored at sea level on the coast.

Mine came from sandy's eggo tires too. Maybe lower elevation but DV is hot as he!! Is there a manufacture date on those tires. I have never looked at mine.

I never looked.

I picked up a set of 4 XLs back in June for a screaming deal from a Marine heading to Iraq - they came from the same seller in San Diego originally but these are like 97% tread, near new if you will, in far better shape than the ones I have on now but still with cracks. I guess I'll have to test them shortly, once I get the front end aligned.

Chris

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Originally Posted by kwai

The cause is global warming.

Honestly, I think humidity and altitude play a role in the rate at which the rubber deteriorates. Higher altitudes have more ultraviolet rays that will break down the rubber faster. High temps and low humidity cause the plasticizers in the rubber to evaporate faster.

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Also, a typical desert environment may often experience large temperature variations in short time periods likely similar to many parts of CO where one can often experience a 50+ degree temperature change in a 24 hour period. The daily cycle of large temperature swings causes many plastics to expand and contract at an unusually rapid rate. Plastics will often "crystallize" or simply become hard and brittle, and eventually separate or fall apart.

Some good examples are rubber bands, auto weather-stripping or plastic windows in your home.

As I always, I would recommend 38x13x16 Swampers. Not quite as tall as the 11x16 XLs, and a bit wider, but they fit on a stock rim, and have awesome traction, and are somewhat regrooveable once worn down to the wear bars. Mine live outside and have some weather checking (cracking) in the sidewalls, but have not failed yet. I run the rears at 12 psi, and the fronts at 35 psi, as I do not have PS and running the fronts at 12 makes the truck hella hard to steer. They are bias ply, so you can use cheap tubes.


Dave

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Originally Posted by fisherman

What are my tire choices in a radial tire?? Swampers, do they make a radial that tall?

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Originally Posted by DNL

As I always, I would recommend 38x13x16 Swampers...They are bias ply, so you can use cheap tubes.

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I'm starting to realize why Bob YELLS all the time. :)

No offense, Cowen.

;) Well if someone lets a question and answer like that get under their skin, well they need to get a life. My question was more to see what others might be running. I don't know every tire brand/size available. NOW WHAT DID YOU SAY. I might need to type in caps soon, I can't even start a new paragragh, and I type too fast.

they still run them out here in Iraq, you don't see many, but they have them. Actually right behind were my office is they have probably 10 sets of new XZL's with the little nipples still on them.

TSL radials are available in 38", but only for 15" and 16.5" rims. 36 is as large as they make for 16" rims.

IROK radials are available in 36, 37, 39.5, and 41 for 16" rims.

Maybe the Irok's would be a good hit in the 39.5 size. Depending upon their actual measurement of height and width. Might not be the best for everyday street driving. Although they are radials.

But are they narrow enough to fit the stock rims? That's what makes the XL/XZL tires so nice for us. Bonus that they're radials.

What a confusing thread.

One can buy all kinds of different brands of tires that are approximately 38" diameter. What had started out as "38 inch radials that will fit a stock wheel" has turned into "what tires are available in a height equal to XL's or XZL's".

An answer to the new thread question might include the following list:

1. Super Swamper (S.S.) SSR 38x15.50-16, 38x15.5-16.5, 38x15.50-17
2. S.S. TRXUS 38.5x14.50-16, 38.5x14.50-17, 38.5x14.50-18, 38.5x14.50-20
3. Pit Bull Rocker 39.5x16.50-15, 39.5x16.50-16, 39.5x16.50-16.5, 39x16.50-17
4.Mickey Thompson (M.T.) Baja Claw 38x15.50-15, 38x15.50-20
5. M.T. MTZ same sizes noted above
6. M.T. ATZ same sized noted above
7. many many others...

Let's not make this thread a sticky. :lol:

Lucky,

Those Michelins in the pictures are what I refer to as "Maypops" - may pop now, may pop later. Dude, they are dry rotted and cracked pretty good...those tires were shot well before the tire grenaded.
That is exactly why I wouldn't pay $500 for a brand new set of XL's no matter how new they were. Like I said, when I saw a set that had less than 100 miles on them and were on a garage kept Power Wagon with cracks, I knew any others I would see down the road were going to have the same problem. Sure enough, I have yet to see any XL's with cracks...you may be able to use them, but I would only use them as bumpers on pilings when you dock your boat!
Stick with new rubber...I bought a new set of Power Kings for $160 out the door each - fresh and they look great. Sure they may be two inches shorter than a XL, but at least I am worry free for the next decade!
Just my two cents!

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Originally Posted by MarknessMonster

What a confusing thread.

One can buy all kinds of different brands of tires that are approximately 38" diameter. What had started out as "38 inch radials that will fit a stock wheel" has turned into "what tires are available in a height equal to XL's or XZL's".

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Not really. It started as a "See? XLs are crap" thread and then Fisherman, probably typing quickly, raised the question:

"Ok so lets say I don't want to run the Michelins, but want a tire similiar in size. At least 38" actual measurement tall. What are my tire choices in a radial tire?? Swampers, do they make a radial that tall? Anyone have any other tires they know of that will fit on a stock or 8" wheel??"

But folks started putting out all these tires with widths like 15.50, 14.50, 16.50, etc., such as on Markness' list. Dude, those tires won't fit a stock 8" wide rim.

So the question raised has remained the same, you just separated the height and width components. The question remains, what other tire meets the same requirements as the XL: 1) radial 2) 38"+ tall and 3) fits a stock 8" rim.

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Originally Posted by Binford

The question remains, what other tire meets the same requirements as the XL: 1) radial 2) 38"+ tall and 3) fits a stock 8" rim.

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That's precisely what my recent post was attempting to explain. Per the original question, I understood that one was requesting a radial tire in 38" diameter size that would fit on a stock wheel, such as do the XL's and XZL's. Then I read some post replies about fat bias tires that would only fit a custom wheel and wondered why someone would post this information other than to confuse some new guys that might not know the difference.

A specific question was asked that received replies that were not relevant to the specification requested. Suddenly, the question changed to "what are you other guys running in a 38 inch tire"? So, my recent post listed several possibilities. Hence, the confusion. :confused:

No confusion for me, just wanted to know what others might be running. You never know when something new comes out. Or weather someone finds some other tires that fit and work well. Thanks for the replies.

I got mine from Al. Rob got his from Tenn. 60-70%ers with absulutely no cracks. Been abusing mine all summer down the road, rock crawlin, ect no problems. Maybe it does have something to due with what part of the country they were sitting in

"The bias construction reduces the chances of sidewall splitting when run off road at low air pressure"

I just saw this on 4wheel parts website as I was looking at some swampers. Is it safe to say that radials are more prone to sidewall splits at low psi, even in new condition? Add to the mix old dry rubber and I guess I'm setting myself up for tire failure. Maybe I should stick with 20 psi and no less.

Chris

Don't know too much about it, but bias construction is supposed to result in stronger sidewalls. Radials flex more and thus their sidewalls are not as strong. Or vice versa.

Not sure if radials are more prone to sidewall splits, per se, but certainly have weaker sidewall construction.

Interesting - that's the first I'd ever heard of the difference (or maybe the first I ever paid attention).

Chris

As I recall, the plies in a bias tire run from the bead across the tread to the other bead (perpendicular to the direction of travel) while radial plies run in generally the same direction as travel.

I'm sure a tire guy will show up soon to flesh this out for us.