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I just got my disc brake conversion kit from HeliTool! Nice, FAST shipping and everything was well packed. Those HUBS are HEAVY!!!
I'm off to NAPA to get the hub socket and then will hit Harbor Freight for a 20 ton press.
I need one, anyway, right? Plus, they're on sale AND I have a 15% off coupon...
What did the disc kit cost you, if I can ask?
I figured it up the other day... prices are on the uglytruckling website, plus a list of things like rotors and calipers to source locally....I figured it up at about 1426 for everything front and rear.
:needpict:
Also if you can keep a running photo diary of the work in progress. :D
The only pictures I could post would be the same of what you see on his website right now. Or I could post pictures of the nice pretty boxes the FedEx guy left at my door. <g>
The prices are on his website. $600 + shipping from the left coast. Being in CO, I received it the same week. Ray has be in contact with me all the way and is excellent to deal with. A real nice guy.
Calipers are about $110 EACH :eek: ($55+$55 core) and the least agressive pads were $24 for an entire set of 4. While I was there, I picked up the hub socket, too.
Then you add bearings and seals and you see where this is going. I'm glad I'm only doing the fronts!
FWIW, the calipers are HUGE compared to what I'm used to dealing with (FSJ's and the wife's Ford Mustang!). At least I'm getting my money's worth.
I'm sure others will mention that for the same $$, you can REPLACE the front axle, but I'm partial to the stock look on the outside. That's just me.
I'll be taking pictures along the way, so eventually it will all end up on my website. I'm going to try the FSJ master cylinder, too, since it is a disc/drum setup, too.
Keep us posted, I have installed the same setup, not yet running as I am building from the ground up, Hope to have it road worthy this summer.
Ray makes some great stuff!
And is a great guy too!
And the brakes will be huge, no doubt there.
How do you like those THICK brackets of his?
I went to his shop many years ago, and I can't say enough about the quality of his work. He doesn't believe in skimping, and really builds things well.
All that being said, have you driven it yet? How do you like the feel?
He used my front axle as the first test axle, but I never got to drive that setup :( And I am curious as to how well it handles now.
sounds like you never made em re-install the wheel studs
Bob, quite honestly, once he told me he had a kit, I forgot to ask him to press in studs.
He sent me NOS hubs. I pounded out the old studs (put a nut on the end to protect the threads and hit em with a BFH) and I pressed them into the NOS hub. Worked perfectly. The rotor flange (ring that is welded to the hub and bolts to the rotor) has 6 holes in it that give you access to insert and press in the studs.
In short, I used a bunch of deep well sockets to support the hub underneath and used another socket to press in the stud. I took pictures of this process and will post once I have completed the entire process.
I spent Saturday running around getting the proper tools. When you go to Napa to get the 2 1/2" hub socket, make sure you DON'T GET the "rounded" hex socket. It's for a Ford axle of some sort and comes in a blister pack. The correct socket does not have the points "rounded".
I also had to go BACK into town to get a 1/2" hex key to remove the rotors from the hub. They are shipped attached to the hub and they are hex cap screws. It was poor planning on my part, so I wasted a lot of time driving around looking for tools. Oh well.
I was able to remove the inner hub seal without ruining it and it looks in good condition. That's good news, since it's about $50 FOR ONE. :eek:
Both bearings look good, but they're much cheaper to replace, so I think I will replace those. The NOS hub has the race installed (or it is part of the hub), so I only need the bearing.
Oh, and yes, I am impressed with the brackets and the overall quality of the entire package. Very nice and very "beefy".
the rear hubs are worse than the fronts to get the studs in. i really dont know why he even removes them as there not in the way. maybe for safety while spinning them on the lathe
One side is (semi) finished. I have the caliper installed and I mounted a wheel to see if I had any interference with the caliper. None. It turns smooth all the way around. This is with custom 1 piece wheels using the stock centers, however.
FWIW, I think the trick with the studs is to press them in partially and then mount them on a wheel and tighten the nut to draw them in square. Mine were a little off. I managed to get the wheel on with a BFH :eek:. Once I tightened all the lug nuts, the wheel came off without a problem. Doing that must have seated the studs in place correctly.
The trick with the studs, bearing races, etc. is to put the hub on top the wood stove, and put the studs and/or races in the freezer.
I have done so many of these blasted things on cement trucks lately it's not even funny!
But it works, and it works WELL. Get that hub bloody well HOT (wearing insulated gloves really helps). And those studs/races will almost fall in.
Take pictures of your progress, boring, but not something we have a lot of here.
That is the "approved" method for changing the races in F-4 wheels....wheel in oven, race in freezer...thick insulated gloves...did it on a Toyota 4WD recently...new race did drop right in...just needed to level it bfore it swelled.
Thanks for the tip. I've had a M715 front kit sitting here for a few years now. I bought it when Ray first announced his intention to move to Thailand(his wife's native country) and didn't want to miss out. I had one of his M37 kits and knew the quality was high. Now he's training someone here in the US to take-over the hub alteration process while Ray will continue to manufacture the brackets and such, and it will all be coordinated through Dave Cirillo, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJGuy
Yes, a complete axle swap can be done for similar $, but then one needs to match the rear lug pattern, gearing, etc.
FSJGuy, I'm in northern CO too.
Ken
PS, the hot/cold parts method is a good one too but I surmise that with these NOS hubs that have no lug spline cut in them that a press of some sort will be required regardless of differing temps between them.
The brackets are on (The correct way. The instructions illustrate a Dodge setup, and the 715 setup is reverse) and the hubs and calipers are installed. The only things left are to replace the hard lines and instal the new MC. I'm going to try the stock FSJ booster and MC, since that is a disc/drum setup. I have the extra large booster from the later FSJ's. So far, it's looking REALLY SWEET. Pix and a writeup will come. Promise. <g>
I would love to see the pics and writeup....would be a nice tech article addition!!
I boogered up the threads on my second hub getting the studs back in, so I had a local machine shop clean em up for me. Everythings back on course. I'm waiting on my $53 inner hub seal to come in from Napa. It's coming from Kentucky to CO, so it might be a while (weather), which is fine. No sense in some poor semi driver ending up in a ditch on account of a lousy auto part.
But you'd think for $53 they could have overnight-ed it! LOL!
Ken, we'll have to get together sometime. PM me or send me an email from www.cfsja.org. Send an email to the list owner and I'll get it. (I'm one of the moderators, we all get those emails.)
The next time you need seals, try AB Linn. I got seals for all 4 corners last year for $16.00 total. This was just after I spent $25 each for the rear ones, so I am not rubbing it in, just letting you know of a better price.
No, I wasn't thinking you were rubbing it in. Thanks for the info. I'll remember that next time. Interestingly enough, NAPA was the CHEAPEST. Checker wanted $75!!!
Bringing this post back from the dead..... <g>
I re-routed my front hard brake lines and installed my FSJ master cylinder today. I picked up a HF vac. pump/bleeder and bled the fronts. The rears have speed bleeders on them, so they are easier.
I still didn't have any bolts for the hubs, so I stuck the transfercase into E-drive (locked) and went to test the brakes. When I put one of my tires back on, I saw that it was low. No big deal, there's a gas station around the corner. Off I go. Brakes are OK, about as good as before, but not great.
I get about 300 feet and that low tire slips off the bead! D'oh! I guess I should have thrown it in the other truck and taken it down to air up. Now I had to WALK back home, get my floor jack and impact and drive back. I changed out the tire with my smaller spare that's always sitting in the bed. I discovered that the original tire is too d*mn heavy to lift into the bed of the 715. I wiggle it into my FSJ, instead. I drive the 715 to the station to air up the SPARE, which is a little low. I drive it back home, WALK back to my FSJ and bring that truck home, too. All that just to air up a tire....
The good news is that I found my stock rim doesn't rub on the disc brake assembly! <g>
Sooooo..... I'm wondering about several different scenarios here:
A: The master cylinder can't put enough volume/pressure for the double piston calipers since it was designed for a single piston caliper.
B: The front junction block that splits the front line to go to the left and right wheel is actually the FSJ brake light switch. Could this also be a proportioning valve and causing low pressure on the front lines? There are 3 lines out and one of them is plugged.
C: The master cylinder (used) is bad.
D: I really don't know how to bleed brakes and need to do it again.
Choose wisely <g> and suggestions/ideas welcome. TIA
Bleed the brakes again. If that doesn't help, get a one-ton master cylinder.
A prop. valve looks like a biggish chunk with lines in and out of it, NOT a small, squarish thing with wiring. Double check.
When bleeding brakes, start farthest away from the master cylinder and work forward.
Still waiting....
:photo:
OK, OK.... You guys are relentless. <g> Hey, I never game a timeframe this time!
I *do* have the first part of the writeup on my site.
www.bigscaryjeep.com
Click on "M715 Disc Brakes".
It's not really finished, because I have to replace the master cylinder and I'm going to install a proportioning valve. As is (with a bad MC), I have semi-decent brakes good enough to go around the block, so I'm hoping that with a working MC and a prop. valve, I'll be able to lock all 4 without stomping the pedal into the ground. (Remember, I'm using an FSJ vac booster and brake pedal assembly.)
It will be a couple weekends before I will be able to get back to this project but I will let everyone know what happens.
Alright, it's been the stated couple of weeks, so here goes with an update.
UPDATE:
I have a new FSJ (Grand Wagoneer) master cylinder attached to the stock vac booster and pedal assembly. The front and rear circuits are competely separate from each other (no prop valve, yet). The pedal still goes low when brakes finally actuate. They will not lock up. I discussed this with Ray and he recommended a master cylinder with at least a 1 1/4" (1.25") bore.
QUESTIONS:
Has anyone actually INSTALLED and DRIVEN their truck with this conversion? <g> What pedal/master cylinder setup are you using?
COMMENTARY:
I'd like to stay with power brakes. I like them, esp since it's already installed. I like not having to strain my leg or stand on the pedal to hold the brake on a hill.
WAIT, THERE'S MORE!:
I did some browsing through NAPA's site and found a 2005 F350 Super Duty master cylinder with a stated more of 1 3/8" !!! If that's true, I might have to try it, even with a NAPA price of $82.50. None of the specs (on any master cylinder) list the stroke. Is this an industry standard or a deep dark secret???
SHAMLESS THANK-YOU to ELICIT MORE HELP:
Many thanks for everyone help and putting up with this thread that won't die! :D
Hydroboost is the answer to a LOT of braking issues ;)
I got mine from a CUCV donor. But really, most will work fine.
The 1 ton setup should have the right size you want, but I can't remember off the top of my head.
Of course that is hydro and not vacuum assist. Just more stuff to mess with.
So is everyone else using a modified version of the original brake pedal?
After experimenting today with a 1980 Chevy 1 ton MC, I've decided that the FSJ brake booster doesn't have enough stroke to depress the MC completely. And yes, it engages the MC pretty much immediately. I tried "extending" it with a spacer, but then the MC doesn't return to its proper place and it won't release the brakes.
So it looks like I'm back to using the original brake pedal assembly and pushrod.... once I find them in my garage. :( Unless someone can tell me of something else that they are using. I'm kind of bummed that the FSJ pedal/booster assembly won't work since I'm familiar with it, but I guess this means I get to learn something new. :rolleyes:
I am going to have to go through with the installation of Ray's kit also, I appreciate you posting up the trials you're having. I liked the idea of using the Astro van hydroboost, I went to the local pull a part and thiere must have been three rigs with them, I do realize the master cyl. would have to be changed out. I remember seeing a thread on this, thought it a clever idea.
I found the orignal pedal assembly and the pushrod that Jon so nicely sent to me (Thanks again, Jon!). I don't think I'm going to get much more travel out of the stock pedal assembly, either....
I think I'm going to take some time off of this project for a while and frustrate myself with something else and come back to this later.
On my hydroboost setup I had to make the rod longer for it to work correctly. But I wasn't trying to use a FSJ booster (tried and failed is more like it).
Basically, for me, I kept the fsj pedal setup, lengthened the rod, and used the hydroboost and MC from the 1 ton CUCV.
After that, it worked great.
I was poking around www.mpbrakes.com and they make no mention of different stroke lengths. However, they DO make mention of residual pressure valves being required for drums. Ray also told me to make sure there was NO residual pressure valve on the MC I was using. There are NO valves on either port of the Chevy 1 ton MC. Looks like I need to install one of those as well.
Hammer, what didn't work with your FSJ booster? I have a single diaphram booster installed right now, but I also have a dual diaphram boost I can use. However, a hard pedal is not my problem. I have excessive travel. Pedal is near to the floor by the time brakes start working and I have to really stomp on it to get them to stop and/or hold the truck still.
My main problem with the FSJ booster was two fold.
First, clearing the huge valve covers I had on my engine at the time.
Second, it didn't have enough power to fully push in the MC for enough braking.
And if you have the travel issue like that, are your rear brakes even working?
Almost sounds like a bad MC to me.
Does the fsj pedal move the pushrod to it's full extent? Or can the rod go in a lot further if it wasn't attached to the pedal?
At what point of pushing the pedal in does it actually start pushing out the brake pistons?
I take it you have everything adjusted correctly?
My main problem with the FSJ booster was two fold.
First, clearing the huge valve covers I had on my engine at the time.
** No problem there. I've got an AMC 360 in there.
Second, it didn't have enough power to fully push in the MC for enough braking.
** The pedal goes all the way until I can feel it bottoming out. I haven't removed the 1 ton MC to measure the stroke (I should have done that BEFORE the install...), so I don't know if the booster is short on travel or not.
And if you have the travel issue like that, are your rear brakes even working?
** I think so. At 30-40 mph, I can get the rears to lock up a bit, but nothing spectacular.
Almost sounds like a bad MC to me.
** I'm going to plug the lines and see if the pedal is hard. The MC is new, from Napa.
Does the fsj pedal move the pushrod to it's full extent? Or can the rod go in a lot further if it wasn't attached to the pedal?
** I'm using the FSJ booster, too. The pedal is able to travel as much as the booster will allow it to.
At what point of pushing the pedal in does it actually start pushing out the brake pistons?
** If I unbolt the MC from the booster and push the pedal down, the MC is pushed out almost immediately.
I take it you have everything adjusted correctly?
** I sure think so. I'm going to try clamping the lines (front and rear separately) and see if the pedal goes hard.
OK, Hammer found my original post for me, so I'll add my conclusion here, so people searching can see it:
I dove back into the brakes today.
The short version: Use a double diaphragm booster with large bore master cylinders
The long version: Thinking that my brake booster was bad, I swapped it out and installed a double diaphragm booster in its place. Wow. Instant brakes! The truck stops without the pedal going all the way to the floor and it even stops when in low range. I think that as the pads get broken in, they will grab even more. I'm happy. Definitely money well spent. It doesn't stop as quickly as my FSJ, but it's also heavier, too. It'll be nice not having to give my leg a workout every time I drive the thing!
ONE MORE THING: I measured the stickout of both the single booster and the double booster. The double booster has slightly more travel on it. Who knew? This, combined with the extra boost power, I think makes a BIG difference.
And yet another update for those who care (and even for those who don't, but have to click on the new threads anyway just to see what's posted! :D )
I had the local machine shop cut out the brake drum centers for me to use as spacers, as suggested by Ray, to prevent rubbing of the brake assembly on the wheel. It helped on one side, but not the other. I don't think the fault is with the kit because my wheels are "custom" made from stock OEM centers welded into 16.5" wheels. The weld is a little thick on some areas of the wheel and the brakes rub slightly on those parts. Tomorrow I will grind down the offending areas on the brake assembly. It's around midnight right now and the neighbors might not take kindly to a grinder running right now, LOL!
On a whim, I also tried the top of the line (EXPENSIVE) brake pads from Napa. So far, not much difference, but maybe they need to be broken in, so I can't say much just yet, but at first glance, I'm not convinced that they're $45 better than the cheap ones....
Once that brake interference is taken care of, it'll be time to go wheelin'!!! :)
Ethan, What did you get the double diaphragm booster out of? I have been curious as well as others about what was going to fix this. My 69 wagoneer has always had a low pedal. I swapped in a dana 60 rear and a dana 44 disc front I darn near had no brakes afterward. I started messing with it by putting in I think a 1 " bore MC. Still low pedal. I picked up a brass proportioning valve but completely tore the rig down for a resto before I put it in. I'll be starting back up on it by fall. Also how much did you pay for the DD booster? It would be nice to have solid brakes again.
Thanks... Al.
The booster was from an 86 Grand Wagoneer. Sometime in the mid 80's, Jeep/Chrysler (whoever!) decided to put the dual diaphragm booster in most of the FSJ's. Mine was free, as it was part of my Backyard Junkyard that I had when we lived on my in-law's farm.
IIRC, they're about $175-$200 from NAPA.
Whatever master cylinder you use, make sure it's for your style of brakes, either drum-drum, disc-drum or disc-disc. It apparently makes a huge difference.
I'm not real impressed with the 80-91 FSJ master cylinder, since it's actually TWO different sized bores. Go figure. :confused:
RE my 715. I took my grinder to the offending parts of the front brakes and they work great! In keeping with the theory of Jeep Equilibrium (Short Version: If you fix something, something else, sometimes completely unrelated will break), my QT t-case is puking fluid again.
The FUN NEVER ENDS!!! :D
If there are different sizes, its a disc/drum type...if you have disc/drum it might be ok...if you have drum/drum or disc/disc, it isnt what you want.
Any Pics? I would like to see some pics of the rear disks, all I have seen so far is fronts.
I only installed the front conversion kit. www.bigscaryjeep.com