If you had the choice... 523 Ford or 502 Chevy?

Ok folks...not many of you know me, but I have been around a while..(I just seldom post) I am in the process of building a trail rig out of one of my M-715's and am getting to the point I NEED to make a drivetrain choice ASAP...as the topic says...I am trying to decide between the Ford and the Chevy for a power plant.... I am very familiar with both of these engines performance wise...and brand loyalty is not a cocern here or I would be building a Rambler (too small) but which do you all feel would fit the best/offer the best performance?

Some truck plans to allow decent opinions to be offered are as follows.

120" WB running front and rear link suspension (upside down triangulated rear, and probably 3 link front) front coil overs and rear coil springs, Front and rear custom built Eaton axles running 5.14's and Detroits, the front axle running aftermarket inner and outer shafts, and the rear running 40 spline (still working on this as I need to see if the room to broach the Detroits side gears is present, I will know soon) Atlas trnsfer case, custom built to look like OEM rear box (Just shorter and made of aluminum, with removable side pannels) 41" swampers and most likely full hydro steering. That is the basics...the ONLY point I am possibly going to have to change is the Atlas, I REALLY want to run a PTO winch I own in a mid mount position, and the Atlas doesn't do PTO's so....(still debating this) I also plan to keep the weight to 4500lbs ready to wheel.

So, either of these engines will make the 500HP I need/want, and I own them both basically...So...which would you run, and besides loyality to specific brands, WHY would you run it?

NoRM

For the gearing we have, the one with the shorter stroke would be plenty...you could drop 50-150 cubes and still have a hot truck....I've driven several from an LT1 motor to Drews 550+ HP 460 and they had more than enough power to be considered a hot rod....Drews feels like full race.
brute4c

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Originally Posted by brute4c

For the gearing we have, the one with the shorter stroke would be plenty...you could drop 50-150 cubes and still have a hot truck....I've driven several from an LT1 motor to Drews 550+ HP 460 and they had more than enough power to be considered a hot rod....Drews feels like full race.
brute4c

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I agree I could...But I have wheeled a 500+hp 523Ci Ford big block now for years...I am rather content with it actually. The only thing is, I am building both front and rear axles from scratch (I am going to avoid broken 60 pinions on this rig) and which side I toss the pumkin on is rather important...although I guess I could do whichever as I can run about any transfercase output I choose easily enough....Basically I was being a bit conservative when I said 500HP...I am planning a bit more;-)

the idea behind this truck is excess strength, excess power, and excess tractor like simplicity, all wrapped up in a VERY abuseable package.

NoRM

NoRM


This is going to be a M-715 built like I suspect no M-715 has ever been built...

If you think you need so much power that you can beat your self and the vehicle to a bloody pulp, you are on the right track....realistically, I personally can see no need for that much power other than to actually compete in competition, use massive amounts of fuel, or just plain show off....maybe thats just me though....
brute4c

I would go with the Chevy. Just because of the greater parts availability and the cheaper cost for those parts. You never know when or where your super rig is going to break down and you need a $2.00 widget to get going again. That widget will probably be easier to find if it fits a Chevy.

I also would look at something besides the Atlas t-case. I think a few of the Zone members have used them with bad results due to the weight of the M715. I know that one of the 4x4 type magazines put one in a new Avalanche and had it tear itself apart only several thousand miles later. I think something that cost over $2000 should have a better track record.

Just my opinions, do with them what you please.

Barman

I agree with your logic..I am basicallly a Ford man but I own a few Big Block Chevy powered rides and I have a lot of respect for that engine as well..hence it's consideration. The plan is a VERY tractor like approach where I can get away with it...many years of wheeling that old Bronco and a few other rigs has taught me a few things.

1)Simple flat rulez on the trail...more like a farm implament of old the
better!
2)I can break anything...say aNP205 output as an example.

I want a fuel injected rig but unless I can bolt a carb on and drive it out of the trail it won't happen ( I think I found a way) I plan to run a points distributor as an example..the one in my Bronco spinds clean to 7200RPM and has never let me down if maintained..and a spare coil/points/condensor will about fix ANY ignition issue I may have arise...

The Chevy appeals to me for the ease of parts availability on certain items...although in truth trail fixable repairs sponsored by Mom and Pop parts house "nowhere USA" are probably just as realistic with the Ford. Point in fact my BB Chevy ate a fuel pump recently and I had to order one due to the "Fuel line location" changes made mid year it was the "least popular" model I owned naturally...I am sure I could have scored a 460 fuel pump anywhere. But agreed the Chevy is probably a bit cheaper to build....and given my self imposed weight limitation no question the BB Chevy and TH400 can be a bunch lighter than the BB Ford/C-6 combo...even if they are both Aluminum headed the Chevy is almost 125lbs lighter a combination. And no argueing the MUCH easier concept of aquiring good flowing BB Chevy headers that may fit...vs Custom building the Ford ones from scratch..something I don't really want to do.

The Atlas thing has me worried as well... but they keep telling me..."I don't think you can break it"...to which I think....does that mean ya "Dare me"?

NoRM
who hates deciding between two good things

I vote Chevrolet, rear sump, rear distributor, abundance of parts. The big Fords sure sound cool though. Why not a computer chipped, large injected, propaned, nitrous Cummins? Enough torque to run three of your trucks. Some of these guys have figured out how to approach 1200 foot pounds of usable torque in a usable rpm range, amazing!

I vote Chevrolet, rear sump, rear distributor, abundance of parts. The big Fords sure sound cool though. Why not a computer chipped, large injected, propaned, nitrous Cummins? Enough torque to run three of your trucks. Some of these guys have figured out how to approach 1200 foot pounds of usable torque in a usable rpm range, amazing!

Bill Mitchell world products 634 chevy clone. 700hp, enough torque to rotate the earth, runs on pumpgas, Idles well, dyno tested and delivered to your door complete carb to pan with a two year warranty. The only substitute for cubic inches is more cubic inches.

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Originally Posted by DaveA.

Bill Mitchell world products 634 chevy clone. 700hp, enough torque to rotate the earth, runs on pumpgas, Idles well, dyno tested and delivered to your door complete carb to pan with a two year warranty. The only substitute for cubic inches is more cubic inches.

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I like the way you think...but in all honesty my budget is not quite THAT large...although a 540 crate engine would work....then again I am looking forward to building my own engine.....tis half the fun. Although anything I will build will be very close to that style engine....large cubic inch pump gas engine...they can be quite tame when set up correctly. My 523 in the Bronco has lots of hard hours on it...less than always "nice" use and it is daily driveable if you can stand to feed it " it can get 13mpg at 60 if driven soft" but usually is closer to 10 mpg the way I drive it.

NoRM

If you are worried about breaking an Atlas maybe you should think of a NP 202. I don't know how hard they are to find though.

Joel

I forgot about the TH400. I read somewhere that the 400 has one more bearing inside than the C6. That extra support gives it greater durability when put behind a big engine.

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Originally Posted by Barrman

I forgot about the TH400. I read somewhere that the 400 has one more bearing inside than the C6. That extra support gives it greater durability when put behind a big engine.

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I think they are both fine transmissions...I have ruined a few TH400's in my day and in all truth am a bit leary of them.....on the other hand I have absolutly abused a C-6 and had WAY beyound the call of duty performance from it...that said maybe my TH400 luck has just been a fluke. But I filled that C-6 with water probably 5 times and once I didn't know it and drove it tell it stopped with a nice "strawberry shake" foam seeping out of the vents and the dipstick tube...we were on the trail so we towed it to the trailer and called it "junk" few days latter i drained it...flushed with fresh fluid and ran it another few years. It was so meesed up that when I finally decided I HAD to rebuild it I took it to a transmission man local here and he called me the following day and called me a liar...I had told him I drove it into the garage no sweat. He showed me the broken drum and twisted output shaft and.... long story short he chormed some of the parts and put them on a wall with a little sighn about frequant service is a good idea lol

That said I know many with TH400 that have served them just as well.so in my book I am unconcerned...BUT the TH400 is lighter...and the 502 is lighter than the Ford...this is starting to sway me that direction.

NoRM

I was referring to the ability to handle brute strength applied real hard. Such as in a drag race. The torsional load placed on a trans in that situation is helped by the extra bearing. For extended beating, I have also had better experience with the C6. I think most of that is related to stock cooling abilities. Ford in my opinion did a better job of providing a way to cool non heavy duty type trucks. Chevy always seemed to try and do it on the cheap.

Having said all of that, if I were to want an automatic, I would go with the TH400 and an aftermarket radiator designed to provide tremedous tranny cooling, run synthetic fluid and keep my exhaust as far from the case as possible.

I think everyone who's read any of my posts know I'll vote Chevrolet on this. This may seem a bit broad at first, but how many rebuilds does that poked out ford have left on it? You've still got another .155" you can still safely overbore the big Chevy. The big block fords make me nervous as hell in the cam area too. Too much spring pressure and the block needs linebored to put needle cam bearings in it to keep it alive. I'll give a big ford it's respect, but for the long haul I'd give Chevy the nod.

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Originally Posted by spicergear

I think everyone who's read any of my posts know I'll vote Chevrolet on this. This may seem a bit broad at first, but how many rebuilds does that poked out ford have left on it? You've still got another .155" you can still safely overbore the big Chevy. The big block fords make me nervous as hell in the cam area too. Too much spring pressure and the block needs linebored to put needle cam bearings in it to keep it alive. I'll give a big ford it's respect, but for the long haul I'd give Chevy the nod.

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Well...not to argue brand specific as I like em all basically. The BB Ford I own has a bunch left...it is a Motorsports block. I have never had a cam issue in MANY years of running big inch Fords...roller cam/triple valve springs and monster seat pressure to deal with .650lift type cams has never caused an issue....the engine in my old Bronco now is a bit tamer than that but has run a "over .600" cam for over 40K road miles and MANY trail rides/dunes runs..snow etc. Never any real isseus other than the ocassional replacement of valve springs.

I am leaning towrds the Chevy for reasons of weight, size, ease of aquiring headers, and to a small extent the fact my tow rig is a BB Chevy so parts will/can be shared when trailering...although I plan to drive this M-715 a bunch.

I have never owned a BB Chevy I have been happy with the cooling...(maybe I am cursed) including a truck I bought new, a few I have built and one i own now... it always runs REAL warm if worked hard...something I have never really had problems with running the Ford..but I am sure this is something I can square away one way or the other.

NoRM

Oh, Motorsports block...no problem. Stock 460 block don't take to kindly to heavy valve springs. I've run across this several times in person as well as seen it in text.

I built a hollman moody 428 for my bosses boat 2 yrs ago and its still runnin strong and breakin parts that link it to the v-drive. no problem with the engine. it turns 4000 to 6000 all day long. Im now building a 460 up for his car(truck, Lincoln) he uses it to pull his boat with so I stepped back on the cam only as the block is fully race prepped w/steel crank w/screw in studs ect. it ought to pull it in half when its done. if you take care of the weakest point and build from top parts ford will survive but the valvesprings never will. chevy is my favorite engine to build but really I enjoy building all of em, mostly hp as that is a labor of love for me. I never have a problem with overheating unless i try to skimp on the rad. cooling capacity or leave out the shroud. this Ive done too and burnt up a $20,000 dollar engine in my car, not a customers. that was a bad deal.

I have seen some fatblock chevies eat cams with high seat pressures on flat tappet cams. No problems with roller cams.