maddawg308 : Flying lock rings off the rims

Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by maddawg308 on Aug 9, 2006, 10:02pm

Okay, getting new rubber this month. A friend of mine mentioned the rims on these 715s were called "widowmakers" in reference to the split rim design, that takes a special shop with a cage to install tires correctly.

How many of you have ever had problems with a ring flying off after the tire was mounted? Ever heard of a case?

Just nervous. Don't want to be mounting my new wheels and tires on the truck, and have the ring take my head off.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by tacomainoh on Aug 9, 2006, 10:22pm

Yeah, I have actually. That's what the big cages at truck shops are for: lock rings.

Be very careful. I think Treepusher had a page up about how to do it and not get killed.


I did once see a pic of a dad and his little girl who were killed by a lockring when they pumped up the tire... wasn't seated ring and KAPOW killed them both.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by compexp on Aug 9, 2006, 10:22pm

would probably happen during the bead seat - not putting them on the truck. as has been mentioned several times before - chain around the rims when inflating to keep the ring on.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by robertcowan on Aug 9, 2006, 11:12pm

GET A PROFESSIONAL TO MOUNT THEM. DONT TAKE A CHANCE IT AINT WORTH IT.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by binfordm715 on Aug 10, 2006, 12:15am

I'm with Bob there. Find a tire shop with a cage.

My tire shop friend who mounted mine did say that our lock rings are among the safest design out there, however....ONCE MOUNTED!!! Just as dangerous as others until then though. But he said once the lock ring is seated, it would have to pull IN before it could burst out. Pretty much an impossibility.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by luckypabst on Aug 10, 2006, 12:31am

No problem here. I've changed a bunch in the garage and a few in the desert on a trip. Wrap some chains through the hand holes and around the tire if you're concerned but a properly seated ring in good condition should never come out once the tire bead covers the inner flange of the ring.

A locking air chuck is a good idea too so you don't have to stand over the tire when you fill it up.

Chris

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by jeepistdougiowa on Aug 10, 2006, 1:04am

Heard of some of the different designs flying off after a hit to a curb, or other hard bump...but never heard of one of ours flying off from any of our members.

Still recommend a tire shop, as it is your life, and I'm guessing it's worht more than a few bucks to ya...LOL
(I've done mine myself before, but with extreme caution.)

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by tacomainoh on Aug 10, 2006, 1:08am

That means he wrapped some duct tape around the whole kit and kaboodle before he started prying on it.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by jeepistdougiowa on Aug 10, 2006, 1:28am

I just used the duct tape to patch up my pants.

I use C-channel and chains on the rims.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by gimpyrobb on Aug 10, 2006, 7:23am

Yup, I did my rims too. The worst part was taking them apart! As long as you watch what you are doing, have a locking chuck, and wrap with chains (leave some slack) you'll be okay.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by elwenil on Aug 10, 2006, 7:34am

Agreed, it can be done by yourself but the danger is very real. Attention to detail can save your life. A tire shop can do them in most cases but with me, they won't touch them so I have to do them myself or transport them 60 miles to another shop. Wrap a good sized chain around the rim and tire through the holes in the rim. Not just one loop, but through several or all of them and secure it with a bolt. The military recommends a clip on chuck with a remote fill valve at least 10' from the chuck. Clip on the chuck, flip the rim face down and fill it up from a distance. I think most guys will flop the rim down on it's face a few times to make sure nothing is going to fly apart. It can be done safely, you just have to take the proper precautions. Remember that this design was used because it is possible to mount tires in the field.
And just to impress on you the force involved, about 12 years ago there was a guy near here that had apparently laid the rim face against a wall thinking that would protect him. It came apart and hit him and slit his throat to the bone. He bled to death before anyone could even make it to a phone.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by porkchop on Aug 10, 2006, 7:46am

Around here the tires shop won't touch them for less than $60 a tire. I don't have that kind a scratch so I did it my self. Nothing to it. Is there a danger, yes, can it be avoided, yes. Once the the ring is seated I fliped it over and jumped up and down on it and then put on a locking chuck. Turn the tire lock ring side down on the ground and then fill. Once the tire seats the danger is over. When it was filled I did bounce it and drop it on the lockring a few times on the concrete (covered with cardboard so I won't mess up my new paint job) and all is well. I have no fears of doing it, but that is me.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by alosix on Aug 10, 2006, 7:58am

Ok, so what are we looking at tools wise to do this in the field?
I've got 4 to do shortly. It would be easier to do them on site than to pull the wheels or take the M725 to a tire shop.

Jason

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by brute4c on Aug 10, 2006, 8:48am

This is THE way:

http://www.m715zone.com/vb/view.php?pg=splitrim_change

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by sermis on Aug 10, 2006, 9:22am

Hardest part is getting the old tires off. After 40 years they don?t go willingly. I used the high lift jack, 4030 John Deere, and 2 still would not budge. Final answer was the man?s tool???SAWSALL. Cut the bead and tire came off.
On reinstalling the tire take your time. Go slow. Lube the tire bead well so it will seat and not wedge crossways. Make sure the rim and lock ring or clean and you should not have a problem. Once the tire bead is seated against the lock ring it is almost impossible for it to come off. NEVER STAND OVER THE TIRE WHILE INFLATING. Tire cage (Best way to go), chain or face down (not that safe, if it comes off it still will go somewhere). I have done lock ring rims for years and never had one come off yet, however I have see others that have.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by gimpyrobb on Aug 10, 2006, 9:24am

Well here's what worked for me. I pulled the valve cores to let the air out. Then I placed the tire under the kaiser frame, and used a jack to push down on the tire to un-seat the bead. Lots of wd40 helps. once the tire was off the bead, I used a large screwdriver to pull the lock ring up, then used a crowbar to go around the rim. Once apart I cleaned up the rim. To install I placed the tube in the tire and put a little air in the tube to give it shape and to make sure it wasn't bunched up.(sometimes I had to pull the core to let air back out.) Then I'd drop the can into the tire. After that I put the flap in. Then I put the lock ring on. I put chains around the tire and rim opposite of the slit in the lock ring. That way, if it pops off the can, it just hinges. Finally inflate. This is a quick reply and isn't the most exact account. If you have more questions feel free to contact me.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by barrman on Aug 10, 2006, 9:34am

Once you do the first one, you will fully understand what is needed. You will also realize that while they can be dangerous, our rims are pretty fool proof. As long as the ring is seated correctly and the tire bead covers the ring, it is almost impossible for it to come off on its own. You will see this demonstrated while trying to break down the tire. Very hard to get the ring off unless the tire is about 1/2" further toward the middle of the rim than the lock ring. That puts the bead about 2" from where it is seated under pressure.

Make sure you clean all the rust off your rims and lock rings before you put them together. Besides looking better and preventing corrosion. The smoother the rim and lock ring is, the better it goes together and the better it comes apart the next time you have to break it down.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by pistolnut on Aug 10, 2006, 9:55am

If you talk to tire people and old mechanics, everyone knows or knows of someone who has been killed by these things. The danger is very real. I nearly killed myself with one of mine because I was doing something dumb and not following the proper procedure. I got a big lump and a gash on my head to drive the point home. There is nothing complicated about mounting tires on these wheels safely, but if you've never done it or never seen it done, take one or two to a shop that does agricultural or big truck tires and watch how its done. In my experience, frequently they don't take all of the precautions that they should, but you'll get the basic idea and see some tricks that will help. When you go home to do the rest yourself, you will be much better prepared. Make sure that you follow all of the safety precautions though. Lock rings can come off with enough force to take your head clean off. I was lucky.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by luckypabst on Aug 10, 2006, 11:04am

I do believe there is a different style of lock ring that is the notorious 'killer lock ring" and it's not the style on our trucks.

For field repairs, two screwdriver tip tire irons and a jack are all you should need, assuming the tires are reasonably new and have been off the wheel somewhat recently. The lock ring has two notches - one near the split and one a few inches beyond that so you can catch the tip of the tire iron and pry the ring out of its seat. from there you can walk the ring out as you go around. In practice it should take less than 10 minutes to swap a tube.

Chris

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by robertcowan on Aug 10, 2006, 1:31pm

IT AMAZES ME HOW FAR PEOPLE WILL GO TO TRY TO KILL THEMSELFS ALL TO SAVE 50.00 TO 100.00 BUCKS. WHY DO YOU THINK PROFESSIONAL TIRE SHOPS DONT WANT TO FOOL WITH SPLIT RIMS ?? ALSO ITS AMAZEING TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL INSTALL A TUBELESS TIRE ( MICHELIN LAV TIRE ) ON A TUBE TYPE RIM. AND SAY IT WORKS PERFECT WHEN THEY CAN SEE THE SIDEWALL OF THE TIRE IS UP AGAINST THE EDGE OF THE RIM AS THERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN ALL WAYS. DRIVE ON !!!!

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by luckypabst on Aug 10, 2006, 2:11pm

There's quite a bit of good info about mounting a two-piece wheel on the web. Most of it deals with large commercial type wheels of which many have a 3 piece design and the general gov't based information all recommends cages and remote fill devices.

A quote from one website:
"This is a safe procedure if done carefully! I have never seen an injury due to a separating split rim off a light vehicle rim. Big Rig wheels are a different format and it is these that cause concern."

http://www.4wdonline.com/Wheels/Split.html

A couple other interesting links:
http://www.worksafe.wa.gov.au/newsit...t19970013.html

and

http://www.tireindustry.org/pdf/osha_Demount-Mount.pdf


Obviously there is danger involved. But if you actually get in there to do the job, you'll see that the design of our M715 wheels is quite safe compared to other types of split ring commercial wheels.

Changing a tube on your own is a very good practice to get into if you drive your truck any measureable distance or take it to remote areas. It only takes one flat more than the number of spares you carry to effectively screw you. You won't have the luxury of shopping around for the best size and price or even finding a shop to do the work in some places. If you can make contact, the off-road tow service in the Eastern Sierra starts at about 800 bucks if you're close to pavement. Some people have reported 3x that if they're way far back.

There has even been an incident of some wacko environmentalist hiding a spike strip in a lightly used, very remote desert roadway. In that situation, I'd be very glad for 2-piece wheels and a box of spare tubes. The people that "found" the booby trap were very lucky to say the least.

Chris

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by porkchop on Aug 10, 2006, 2:35pm

The XL sidewall IS NOt against the rim. I posted pictures on the old board and I will post them when I get home. The XL is designed to go on rims similiar to the split rim. The mounting surface is slightly larger than the tube tires I took off.

I used a slide hammer to remove my tires that were on for over 20 years. I wen tto the motor pool on base and they let me use any tool I wanted to. Had all four off in less than 40 minutes.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by fredrader on Aug 10, 2006, 5:01pm

There is 2 major truck stops near me a Pilot with a tire shop and a TA with a shop and they both do split rims as will any truck stop in the country since there are lots of split rims still in service over the road..They will dismount the wheel/tire from the truck break it down replace the tube,flap and tire and remount the tire on the wheel and put it back on your truck for $25-$35 each if you supply all the parts..The Pilot shop closest to me charges $25 and the TA charges $35..I took my M35 to them and had 8 tires changed and it cost $200 and took about 2 - 3 hours with 3 guys swinging hammers and cussing (A LOT OF CUSSING)..

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by kwai on Aug 10, 2006, 6:00pm

I took the first tire to a pro who showed me how to use the duck-billed hammer and tire irons to remove the ring. Took him less than 2 minutes to break down the first tire and I am sure it had been mounted for at least 20 years. Took me and my BIL almost an hour to break down the other 3. LOL

We put them back together ourselves without any problems. We used the space between the concrete floor and early bronco for ad hoc tire cage.

The M715 wheel is technically a lock-ring wheel and not a split-rim wheel. As mentioned before the lock-ring design is a better than a true split-rim.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by dj on Aug 10, 2006, 9:09pm

It is illegal for tire shops to service split rims. Lock ring rims are not. As a former owner of a trucking company I've changed many lock ring wheels,without incident. You must be careful,clean the wheel and ring good,and use a locking chuck and tire lube to prevent further rust. Like all things common sense and caution are required for a proper and safe job.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by fredrader on Aug 10, 2006, 10:24pm

It's not illegal for a truck tire shop to service split rims...Duh..Call any truck stop..We have our 2 1/2 ton M35 tires and wheels done any time we need to.I can give you 3 different places within 25mi from me that does split rims..2 truck stops and 1 goodyear dealer in eaton ohio and that is just the ones we have used who knows how many more are local that we havent used.....

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by elwenil on Aug 11, 2006, 7:28am

Before everyone goes flying off, make sure of your terminology. There are at least three major designs of "multi-piece" rims out there and probably some of us are all thinking about different ones. Split ring, split rim, and the old two piece rims are all different but do have some of the same dangers. Typically they are all lumped in under the name of "split rim" these days.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by binfordm715 on Aug 11, 2006, 9:25am


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">The XL sidewall IS NOt against the rim. I posted pictures on the old board and I will post them when I get home. The XL is designed to go on rims similiar to the split rim. The mounting surface is slightly larger than the tube tires I took off.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Porky's right, Bob.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by barrman on Aug 11, 2006, 11:58am

My truck is about 4 feet from me as I type this. The XZL is seated against the lock ring just like it would be against a fixed one peice rim.

PC posted pictures in the thread he referred to showing how the Michelin mounts up on our rims. I think the pictures were on page 3 of the 5 page thread.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by sermis on Aug 11, 2006, 9:12pm

Never, Never, Never stand over the tire while airing it up.

If nothing else attache the hose with it on the floor ring up and stand back, that way you can see how high it goes. 40 years around them and never had one come off on me but have seen others that have had them come off. Go slow, be careful, clean it and no problems. I really don't think they are that bad if you are careful. 2 piece rings I don't like. I have had tubless tires come of while mounting them, oops I was using starting fluid to seat the bead, my fault.
As to the redneck removel. High lift, tire sledge, bead breaker, and a tractor with bucket and still could not get them to give up. Sawsall, thats the tool. To my supprise the rims were not rusted that much.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by treepusher on Aug 11, 2006, 9:15pm

Something I didn't mention is that I smeered all with Murphy's oil soap to get a better, even, bead position when inflating. Just make sure to double check the lock ring before inflating and every 5 pounds while filling. Prefilling the tube in the tire before dropping in the wheel will help prevent sudden pressure changes as the tube unfolds. It ain't rocket science, It has been done millions of times by newbees at old time truck shops. Just don't do while stupid.

Re: Flying lock rings off the rims
Post by fivequarter on Aug 12, 2006, 2:57pm

Not having had to work on split rims since I was young and dumb, the only things I can think of to add is to be sure to avoid springing the ring during disassembly or reassembly. Inspect the locking surfaces for foreign matter that may prevent a solid lockup. Before airing up, visually inspect the entire circumference of the ring for a good fit. Make sure the ring can not escape in event of failure as has been discussed earlier. At the service station I used to work at, we didn't have a cage. We placed the tire under one arm of the lift when airing up.