asbestosglove : Head Gasket Source

Head Gasket Source
Post by asbestosglove on Apr 10, 2006, 10:35pm

Best place to buy head gasket for 230 Tornado? Thanks AG in NC

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by xtreme on Apr 10, 2006, 10:39pm

if its for an M715 it uses the same head gasket as the jeep gladiator.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by rpgdeity on Apr 10, 2006, 11:04pm

This is where I am missing the old zone, I would have just done some research as to the interchangability of items from the civilian 230 to the military 230, but obviously I can't do that. So I have a couple gasket questions, hope somebody can anwser.

I'm going to be pulling the valve cover off, dropping the oil pan, and replacing the single barrel carb intake with a 2 barrel carb intake. So the head gasket is the same as a civilian 230 (I'm assuming that was what was in the Gladiator), what about the oil pan gasket and an intake gasket? What years was the Gladiator made? Any other Jeeps that came with the 230? Hoping I can get a little more info before the guys down at NAPA tell me I don't know what I'm talking about (I've gone in for M-715 parts before and all I get is a blank stare). Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by robertcowan on Apr 10, 2006, 11:16pm

i got a N.O.S. military head gasket for sale if you still need one. there very hard to find these days. bob in tn. 1 423 384 8938 or email me bcowanwheels@aol.com

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by robertcowan on Apr 10, 2006, 11:24pm

a military tornado 230 engine head gasket is completely different than the civilian 230 head gasket. there not interchangeable positively !!!!!!! there is alot of diference between the 2 engines. i got alot of both of them and i,ve dissmantled alot of each of them critters.
bob

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 12:21am

odd, I put a 230 gladiator head gasket on mine.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by rpgdeity on Apr 11, 2006, 12:23am

What about the valve cover gasket? Is it different too?

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 12:31am

no, its the same...as is the exhaust manifold gasket and the inlet manfold gasket. The water pumps are different.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by rpgdeity on Apr 11, 2006, 12:35am

Alright, thank you. I'll see what NAPA can come up with for me.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by brute4c on Apr 11, 2006, 8:49am

Heres a short breakdown....

The civilian 230 OHC was introduced in late 1962 and was made in production through the 1965 model year. It was installed in the full size Jeeps like the Gladiator and Wagoneer and also in the somewhat smaller Universal series pickups and wagons. I dont know of other models that had it off hand, though there may be some. I have one from a Universal series pickup...

The military 230 OHC engine was produced from 1967 to 1969 in the G890 series trucks only. The M715/M724/M725/M726 trucks make up the G890 series.

The timing cover forward to the fan hub is different and non interchangeable between the military and civilian trucks....the timing chain is the same...the fan is the same....the rest isnt.

Everything above the head gasket through the valve cover is the same, including intake and exhaust gaskets (whether a 1 or 2 barrel) with the only exceptions being that the head casting itself is wider at the front on the mil engines and the timing cover on the mil engine has 2 bolts that secure to the front of the head at the top. On the civvy engines, one of these bolts is not to the head but to a plate that bolts between the head and the timing cover...so civvy motors dont have the drivers side upper bolt hole drilled and tapped.

The blocks do not interchange due to the motor mount locations...the mil engine has them on bosses on the side of the block...the civvy engine has them at the lower outside edges of that plate I mentioned that bolts between the timing cover and the block/head....which puts them far forward of the mil mounts.
The cranks have differences in bearings, pilot bushing hole diameter, a water excluder seal at the front, and maybe more stuff. The rods have different bearings as well. The rear main seal can be the same between the 2 engines or the mil engine may have one that is visually larger by 2-3 times...dont understaand...just that this has been shown to be true.

The oil pump and the distributor and their drive gear, the worm gear on the crank are interchangeable as long as the difference in voltage is taken into account, obviously.

The oil pans are interchangeable.

Pistons are interchangeable but there are 2 different compression ratios to be found...ALL mil engines have 7.5:1 from the factory. The civvy engines were made in both 7.5:1 and 8.5:1 versions. I have an old civvy manual that says that all the civvy 1 barrels were the lower ratio and the 2 barrels could be either lower or higher...I bought a 230 engine for the 2 barrel, civvy ignition, and other spare parts...it was 8.5:1...
The difference is the dome height...the lower compression ratio is visible flatter than the higher one...
There is no valve clearance issue if one puts the higher compression pistons in the lower compression motors...nothing in the head or head gasket area change in the civvy motors between the 2 ratios.

The intakes interchange but the mil style has 2 threaded ports on the drivers side...one at the front for the coolant bypass hose, and one to the rear for the temp sending unit...civvy intakes only have the rear port. This can be overcome by simply installing a T fiting into the civvy manifolds rear port and installing the sending unit to one side and a hose barb to the other.

Starters interchange, voltage differs of course...

There are 2 possible fuel pumps....mil engines have the fuel pump with a vacuum pump on top made together in one unit...some civvy engines use the same pump...I have one from the engine I bought...others have just the fuel pump portion without the vacuum part. They do interchange if one isnt worried about vacuum for wipers...i.e. swap to electric wipers.


I think that covers it pretty well....if I missed anything, just ask.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by redneck1 on Apr 11, 2006, 10:26am

I went with a civvy fuel pump and picked up the vacuum from the intake.
Redneck1

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by rpgdeity on Apr 11, 2006, 8:59pm

Thank you so much Brute4c for that awesome tech. I do have another question, I was looking at on online parts database and for 1967 it listed the Jeep Gladiator has having either a 3.8L 230 or a 3.8L 232. Anybody know anything about this? I'm not sure if it pertains to my situations, but I was curious. I find the history of these old engines rather fascinating.

One other thing, not that I don't beleive one person or another, its simply that I am getting conflicting information. Robert Cowan, would it be possible for you to post a pic of the civilian head gasket next to the military head gasket? I would just like to see a pic of both of them to identify the differences.

I am worried about the possible gasket differences because I just got done talking with the local autoparts store and all they were able to find was a complete engine gasket kit for a 230 for a Gladiator (they said the kit came with every gasket needed to rebuild the engine, not that I want to do that, but at least I'll have every gasket), and its not that bad of a price either. I'd like to go with that because I kinda need the gaskets quick. Anyway, thank you everyone for all the information thus far, hope someone can answer my other questions.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 9:12pm

The 230 is a kaiser engine and the 232 is the AMC I6 very different engine to the 230.

(--- The AMC 232 inline 6 uses a cast iron block and cylinder head with hydraulic lifters and 7 main bearings. It was the standard engine in CJs from '72-'78 and in '65-'70 J-series pickups and Wagoneers. ---)

So over time the Gladiator or J-trucks were fitted with first the 230 and then the AMC 232, 258 and the V8s.

Kaiser 230 OHC I6 "Tornado"(63-66)
AMC 327 V8 "Vigilante" (65-66)
AMC 232 I6 (67-70)
Buick 350 V8 "Dauntless" (67-70)
AMC 258 I6 (71-end of J truck production)
AMC 304 V8 (71-73)
AMC 360 V8 2 bbl. (71-end)
AMC 360 V8 4 bbl. (74-end J-xx models)
AMC 401 V8 4 bbl. (74-end J-xx models)


(--- In 1965 Jeep changed the model number to a four digit number with the exception of the J-100 panel delivery truck. In 1967 the two wheel drive models were dropped. In 1970, the Gladiators received the same style grill as the Wagoneer, which was the first styling change since its introduction. 1971 marked the end of the 3000 series and in 1972 the "Gladiator" name was dropped and the J trucks were simply called Jeep trucks. ---)

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 9:35pm

I can assure you that I used civilian gaskets on my truck when I rebuilt the head. Also, if anything I would listen to Jon because as the Zone Admin he wouldn't want to give you incorrect information and most all information provided has been proven by other zone members.

They still make a top end gasket set for the civilian 230 engine...I used a set on mine and you can get them at NAPA. It's that simple.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by rpgdeity on Apr 11, 2006, 9:49pm

Hey, thanks for the engine information. That makes sense now, I've heard people refer to a 232 in older Jeeps, didn't know if that was a misprint of 230, or if it was a different engine.

I'm going to go ahead and order that gasket kit from my local autoparts store. Not sure how soon I'll be replacing the head gasket, but when I do I'll take pics just for the record. Guess I'll know then for sure if they are the same or not, lol.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 9:56pm

Your welcome...



That will be 25 dollars please (cha ching!)


hehehe

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by brute4c on Apr 11, 2006, 10:10pm

There is an older engine to mention in the mix...the 226. It predates the 230 OHC by a few years and was a flathead design...why is this important? According to the Mitchell Interchange Manual from 1964 and 1965, the 230 will boltinto the engine compartment of the 226, same mounts on the civilian version, AND bolt to the same transmission.

Radically different designs, flathead and OHC, but the 226 is the only other engine in the entire Jeep lineup that shares anything directly with the 230 OHC.

I have seen books that list the 230 OHC as late as 68 for the civvy type...but the factory actually built the engines up to 65...they were used in vehicles up to then though some of the vehicles are dated later, like 67, though they were built in 65...I know because the engine I bought from the civvy truck was dated November of 65 right on the block stamp...the title said the truck was a 67...the owner told me he bought it in 67...seems the truck was built in 65 but sat on the dealers lot...it sold in 67 and so was titled as new as a 67 truck...

I know of members who have purchased the full gasket set and used most of them in a rebuild...timing cover wont work but almost all the rest will including the head gasket...it has been done several times.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 10:26pm

The 226 cid Flathead (L-head) inline six cylinder engine.

http://jeepfc.www5.50megs.com/fc170/6-226a.jpg

There was also a factory supercharged version of this engine.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by rpgdeity on Apr 11, 2006, 10:41pm

That is some more cool info. Very cool pic of an old engine. Wonder what kinda HP the supercharged version cranked out, lol. I can't imagine a whole lot. Has anybody done any drastic "performance" modifications to the 230 to try to get more power out of it? Right now my 230 has a 12V conversion, distributor with the vacuum advance, and 2-barrel Holley. Is that pretty much all I can do to it? I've heard from many people that those engines in stock form "flattened" cams (I'm guessing they mean that the cam lobes wore, but not quite sure as to what would prematurely cause this) if you tried to push the 230 very much. My ultimate plan is to eventually go with a different engine/trans, but for right now I am happy with the 230 and I will run it until I have major problems with it.

The thing that also peaked my apprehension about gasket interchange is that Robert Cowan is selling the civ. head gasket for $25, and the NOS military gasket for $100. Major difference if they will both work. I guess if somebody can't stand anything other than military parts in a military engine it might be important, I just want a gasket that works, lol.

I know I'm kinda getting off topic from the original title of this thread, but I hope nobody minds, I have one more oddball question: What would be the reasoning of including 8.5:1 compression pistons in the 2-barrel carb 230 versus the 7.5:1 compression pistons in the 1-barrel carb engine? Is it just more compression for more air/fuel flow?

I know that I've pretty much hijacked a simple question thread, but this 230 information is just so awesome.

Re: Head Gasket Source
Post by brute4c on Apr 12, 2006, 8:59am

We have found out that the civvy and mil head gaskets ARE different and NOT interchangeable.

The compression ratio in the 2 barrel could be either the lower or higher ratio...the higher ratio had a bit more horsepower, possibly done to offset the loss of low end torque that happens when moving to the 2 barrel from the one barrel...bigger carb does that.

Notice the bellhousing in that pic of the 226? Compare to the 230's...only thing going that is even close...and it is real close...ours is real weird because it is in the family with even older than itself technology...

Flattened cams are, as you surmised, cams that have been worn down to the point where full lift is not being achieved at the valve any longer. A new cam would need to be installed or it is possible with some companies to have the old cam reground...the lobes are built up and then ground back to spec...some places will even change the cam to a more performance grind when doing this procedure, though I wouldnt have a clue what the profile for a good performance cam would be for this engine...I do not know of more than 1 grind being used by the factory in American built 230's.

As far as high perf 230's....there were several models of them built, but they were not built in the US...Argentina was the place to find them. For US models, the 2 barrel and civvy ignition are the easy upgrades...one could drill and tap the one bolt hole on a civvy head, maybe have to do some machine work to make sure its straight and the seats are good, etc. and bolt it on for the extra point of compression. Thats about all with factory parts. The Argentine built ones ran from roughly the 140 horse level of the American version up to somewhere around 300 horsepower. They ran the basic setup of a 4 main block up to about 220 horse and then used their own redesigned 7 main bearing block for higher output applications...those numbers are from memory and are subject to error but there is a split in that range...
A couple things they did to increase power were to enlarge the engine in cubic inch up to 265 or so...put on dual and triple carb setups with 3 dual throat Webers being the top dog...compression ratios went as high are 11:1, cams were ground with much more radical profiles, dual exhaust headers were also utilized where the front 3 cylinders fed into one header and the rear 3 into the other...a 2 pipe collector joined these 2 headers in the engine compartment. The intake side of the head was completely redseigned to fit the muliple carbs...instead of the "hallway" that our engines use between the intake manifold and the actual cylinder ports, the decided to do it like a regular engine...the side of the head was cut away and a plate was bolted directly to the side of the head at the ports...this plate had round tubes about 3 inches long or so bolted to it...these tubes, on the non-head end, had the carbs bolted to them. So there was a 2 piece intake basically with an adapter plate at the head side and a set of plenum tubes to bolt the carb to and bolt to the adapter plate. Both the 2 carb and 3 carb setups used that design with differing numbers of plenum tubes.

If you look around, there are pics on the net of these...they were raced for many years, even in international ccompetition in cars running at pretty high speeds...I think around 175 to 180 mph or so was the highest I found...the manufacturer was Industrias Kaiser Argentina (IKA)...they even made a 4 cylinder version at one point...

"Also, a very few units (about 6) built as prototypes for military use, were factory-equipped with the very rare 154 cu. in Tornado 4-cylinder OHC engine (a 4-cylinder version of the 230 Tornado straight six). They were sent to Chile, but after some testing, they were rejected by the Chilean army. Those units were later sold to the Bolivian army."

That is from this page if you are interested:

http://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/World/Argentina.html

Also, another note on the 230 and 226 engines, often I hear people say the 230 is a Continental engine instead of it being a Kaiser engine...it is a Kaiser engine BUT the 226 is a Continental...I acredit this in some measure to the odd overlap in interchangeability between the 2 causing confusion...

I think I am done for now...I have work to do on the Zone...