Theory Question: EMP (Amphi, Kwai...)

I was just thinking today as I was reinstalling my plug wires for the 4th time.
I was remembering back to my Army NBC training and was thinking about the effects of post-nuclear EMP and how it may effect this truck.

My question is would the encapsulated coil and distributor, shielded plug wires and plugs offer any protection against the effects of EMP?

Some of you engineer types feel free to chime in, I'd like to get some educated input here.

No offense to any hillbilly's or dummards, you guys feel free to pipe up too.:lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fng

My question is would the encapsulated coil and distributor, shielded plug wires and plugs offer any protection against the effects of EMP?

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Maybe some small amount but not much, because there is no real way to insulated magnetic lines of force produced by a magnet, electricity, or EMP.

These lines can be bent by another magnet or piece of metal in close proximity. They can also be concentrated in metals like iron. This is what makes a magnet stick to metal. However, if the force is strong enough it will saturate the iron and the remaining lines of force will leak out or pass right through as if the metal is not there.

If there was a way to insulate these lines of force, one could design and build a permeate magnet motor that ran on magnets only without electricity.

My best guess on this subject.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2...etail89091.jpg

Wow. Now that's an answer. Thanks.

According to Mr. Positive it is not an electro magnetic pulse. He insist it is an EMD for discharge that could last up to 30 minutes per explosive event. He lectured me at length about this last summer when we were swapping some parts. He claimed that a standard military sealed distributor would be fine as long as the truck was not running at the time of the EMD. He also mentioned that the points could get fried with the truck off so I should carry a spare set of points, cap, rotor, condensor and coil. Basically, the same things that would go wrong if the truck was running.

Tracy, if you out in the middle of nowhere Arkansas are subject to EMP/EMD, I think there will be bigger things than starting the M715 to worry about.

I would say a stock M715 ignition system, that is points, condensor, and a coil, is completely immune to any kind of EMP of any magnitude that wouldn't be melting metal randomly...

EMPs are primarily an issue with solid-state electronics, using low current, high-impedance signals, and sensitive PN junctions, FET gate insulators, etc. In order to damage a points ignition, the pulse would have to induce so much current that it physically melted the wires in the ignition coil or punched through the high-voltage insulation, and if you're this close to ground zero, you're toast anyway.

The shielding around the stock ignition does, however, serve some useful purposes - but in the opposite direction. It prevents noise from your ignition from being radiated, which prevents interference with radio and communications gear, prevents its detection by enemy forces, etc.

--Randy

From my understanding.... It wouldn't really matter much what it did to the ignition system. An EMP will 'cook' magnets (read - demagnitize) and batteries (connected to the frame), so no generator and batteries. The truck would be dead in the water either way.

Not sure how protected the mil generators are....

Snuffy

Not sure if it helps but this is from the -20 manual...I relize it isnt about outward stuff coming in but it does describe the system other than the basic ignition parts and such:

Section VII. RADIO INTERFERENCE SUPPRESSION

2-18. General.

Radio interference suppression is the elimination or minimization of electrical disturbances that interfere with radio reception or disclose the vehicle location to sensitive electrical detectors. It is important that all vehicles, whether equipped with radios or not, be properly suppressed to prevent interference with radio reception in neighboring vehicles.

2-19. Interference Suppression Components.

a. General. The radio interference suppression system does not include any primary suppression components specifically used for this purpose. All
components of the cargo truck and ambulance that are capable of emitting radio frequency signals are equipped either with in-line (bypass) capacitors and/or are grounded to the vehicle chassis.
b. Spark Plugs. The resistor type spark plugs incorporate an extended steel base which shields the ceramic insulator and provides attachment facilities for the shielded spark plug cables.
c. Spark Plug Cables. Fully shielded spark plug cables are used in conjunction with the shielded resistor spark plugs. The metallic conductor is multiple stranded and double insulated. A spring jacket surrounds the cable insulation and provides rigidity to the cables in higher temperatures. The electromagnetic shielding is a double layer of close weave copper braiding. The shielding allows full flexibility of the spring jacket and still provides continuous shielding. The copper braiding is soldered to formed brass tubing at the ends of the cable. The center conductor is terminated at both ends by a copper alloy spring; is sealed by a rubber sleeve with a shoulder that fits inside the spark plug shield; and expands to a tight fit when the cable connector is tightened.
d. Distributor and Ignition Coil. The distributor and ignition coil are of unit construction within a continuous casted aluminum housing. The housing has provisions for connecting the spark plug cables
as described above. The housing is grounded to the cast iron engine block by the mounting bolt.

2-20. Replacement of Suppression Components.

Refer to the pertinent maintenance paragraphs containing removal and installation instructions for components.

2-21. Testing of Radio Interference Suppression Components.

Since there are no primary suppression components in the system, testing is accomplished in conjunction with electrical troubleshooting procedures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snuffy

From my understanding.... It wouldn't really matter much what it did to the ignition system. An EMP will 'cook' magnets (read - demagnitize) and batteries (connected to the frame), so no generator and batteries. The truck would be dead in the water either way.

Not sure how protected the mil generators are....

Snuffy

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I think people are greatly overestimating the effects of an EMP... frying a battery, for example, is essentially impossible. By the time you managed to apply enough of an electromagnetic field to the jeep to cook the battery, the whole jeep would already be on fire...

The alternator, however, is the most EMP-sensitive part of a stock M715, due to its use of solid-state electronics, both the regulator circuit and the silicon diode output bridge. It is, in fact, the only part on a stock one likely to be damaged by an EMP. So in case of EMP, better start looking for an old generator (no diodes), or make sure to keep the lights off so the batteries last as long as possible.

--Randy

Tim, that answer was great!
There has been alot of growing concern by the local "like-minded" individuals about the nuke reactor down in central Arkansas (real close to Wrecker and Combat 32). What if it got terrorized, taken out by bombs...etc. That's what really got me to thinking. I would bet the bigger concern would be fallout or contamination rather than EMP or whatnot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randygar

...... It is, in fact, the only part on a stock one likely to be damaged by an EMP. So in case of EMP, better start looking for an old generator (no diodes), or make sure to keep the lights off so the batteries last as long as possible.

--Randy

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That's not entirely true. What about the new solidstate flasher unit.

If an EMP went off you may not have turn signals. That would be tragic :D

Time to dust off the old style units.......

Sounds like someone has been reading One Second After....

(aside from me)

it did get me thinking though. It sounds like the old tech in a m715 would keep it alive, so long as it was not running at the time of the event. If this book as "accurate" as Mr. Gingrich says it is in the forward, its the newer, smaller solid state electronics that will get fried, not the big, chunky, primitive 1960s stuff.

Zach

The ignition lead is not shielded and would be source (antenna) of the high amps that would seek ground inside the shielded (grounded) distributer assembly.

Starter and alternator would also be effected. So keep spare parts in a capped pipe and park on an incline if you are worried.

Soviet diesel engines were damage in tests.
http://www.futurescience.com/emp/Graham-Loborev.gif

Here is a Ford Taurus getting hit with an EMP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj54FcI7_dE

If your close enough to get affected by an EMP you've got other issues to worry about, but anything solid state on the truck will have a problem, the distributor and the plugs shouldn't.

Get a deuce and park it facing downhill. It will still run and run over anything in it's way as you leave the scene.

Amphi, can I build an emp-generator small to fit in my truck so that I can zap those idjits that have those darn sub-woofers going at the stop-light. Now that would be fun.

If you could only focus the EMP. . . the evils one could perform. Like Kwai's idea- loud stereos, farty muffler cars, idgits pulling wheelies at 75 mph in the middle of downtown traffic, etc.

Couldn't you hotwire a Tazer with your EMD-genset?

Just have the leads quick-release.

And remove your license plate before hand.

Scott

"don't taze me, bro"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maingear

The ignition lead is not shielded and would be source (antenna) of the high amps that would seek ground inside the shielded (grounded) distributer assembly.

Starter and alternator would also be effected. So keep spare parts in a capped pipe and park on an incline if you are worried.

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The ignition output is designed for high voltage, and is not connected to anything sensitive enough to be easily damaged.

The starter motor is roughly invincible when it comes to EMPs. If you manage to fry it, it'll be through parts turning into melted blobs as likely as it is the low-turn windings built up enough voltage to unclearably short the insulation or melt themselves...

--Randy

The only thing that will be affected would be the solid state stuff. anything primitive is fine. The fastest way to make your own vehicle imobilizer is to make a Tesla coil and install it in the truck. when you get within ten feet of someone that is annoying you, turn it on. It can easily put out two million volts and shoot lightning bolts ten feet. I made one that shoots out 4 foot lightning bolts and somewhere around 1 million volts ten years ago. You have to unplug everything in the house so it doesnt fry it and you need an isolator for the 110 volt supply. Tesla blew up the Colorado springs power station testing one of his coils because he forgot to install an isolator before the coil. I'm all numb on the left side now:D

Tesla was cool. A visionary. He wanted household voltage to be taken out of the air like radio and TV waves.....

Wasn't there a police force that was experimenting with a Tesla/EMP coil robot thing that could be launched from the front of a patrol car sent like an RC car to get under the bottom of a fleeing fellons car in a chase and then set off the EMP thus stopping the bad guys vehicle? I remember seeing something on TV a few years ago about that. I wonder how it developed.

I heard the cops kept getting the R/C controls backwards and shutting down their own cars.HAHAHAHA
(Got a stinking speeding ticket last week....mad at the cops right now)

How did they catch your chopper???

:)