Cummins

What I have is a Cummins 4BT remanned by Recon Diesel Co. (read Cummins). It was pulled from a Frito Lay truck prior to remanufacture. It retains the flywheel and aparatus for the auto transmission. I'm mating this engine to a 3053-A. The bellhousing on the engine and transmission already match up.


My question is this: Do I need to replace the flywheel or just pull the flywheel and remove the automatic tranny parts (if possible)? Also, I have a dry rear seal - is this correct or do I need a wet rear seal?


Never run into this problem, so I have no point of reference. If I'm missing something... please feel free to point out my ignorance.

Cummins Service (2 seperate shops) looked at it and had no solutions. Actually, both said they had never seen this setup on a flywheel. They are a slave to the computer and there is no description for the flywheel - only part numbers.

Cummins Customer Service is about to recieve my boot in an unpleasant place and in a decidedly unreasonable manner. They have bent over backwards (twice) to not give me a PN for a manual transmission flywheel. They even tried to bluff me with the EPA regulations as one of the reasons not to give me the part number. It's a sorry world....

Thanks guys,
Snuffy

Well if you are looking for a PN for a manual tranny flywheel for a 4bt. First it is the same mounting as the 6bt, second, there are hundreds of flywheel/clutch combo's for the 4bt/6bt manual tranny's. Light duty/medium duty from early 90's ford, freightliner, etc..etc.. So if you are looking for the exact part#, good luck. I have yet to get it. I have a part number for a 14" flywheel but was told by ATT transmission, (they bought out the spicer/eaton medium duty trans line) that a 14" would not fit due to where the ring gear is placed. I am mating my 6bt to a spicer 3053 as well. i am using the SAE#3 bellhousing and will just use the upgraded size flywheel 13" from a light duty dodge, with a valair 13"clutch. Most any clutch manufacturer can change the input shaft diameter of the clutch to whatever you want.

So all in all i am just using a 1 ton dodge clutch with the clutch modified to fit the 1.5in/10 Spline shaft. I know a 93 ford f600 with a 5.9 uses a SAE#3 flywheel but i think uses a clutch disk that is 1.75in/10spline. I have talked several hours with valeo, southbend, valair, cummins, and some heavy truck suppliers to get the right set-up. I could just run a c70 clutch set-up, but i am wanting to turn my 12v up quite a bit. And the valair is rated for 500hp/1000tq. AN easy fix for you would be to get an SAE#3 bellhousing, a regular 12in flywheel and clutch from a dodge cummins truck and get the clutch manufacturer to put the 1.5in/10spline set-up for the clutch. The HD pilot bearing for the dodge cummins also have a ID of .750 which is what you want for the spicer 3053 input shaft.

There isn't any point in getting upset with the cummins folks. They do their job, and quite honestly, their job description doesn't include helping you put together a mismatch of parts. They don't have any more information than you do, and quite probably, less. Cummins builds engines to a particular customers specifications, and sells them. That's Cummins with a capital "C". Corporate engineers do that, not Hadji behind the parts desk. There are literally hundreds of possible combinations, and if you don't have specific knowledge of something, you aren't going to find it in a parts reference.. All the guy behind the counter has is the CPL# (control parts list) and what parts go on it. You need to check with a medium duty truck shop for that particular conversion. Gun512 is correct in the fact that you should use an SAE 3 or SAE 2 flywheel housing, as the 3053 from a duece already has a bell housing to mate to it.

What you are trying to do is cool, but it is a puzzle that you have to figure out yourself. Holding some guy responsible because you don't know what you need is pretty much ridiculous in my book. I understand your frustration, but if you want it, gotta pull them britches up a tad and do it yourself.

Doug

4btswaps.com is a very good resource for various bits of information as well, but I can't say that I've seen the specific question answered there. Still wouldn't be a bad place to look, ad there are a few swaps over there using SAE type bell housings and transmissions.

I found dozens of set-ups that use a flywheel and clutch set-up that would work for the swap but, they are all either 1.75 or 2.00 in input shafts. That is the big kicker. And the highest rated clutch i found factory with a 1.5input out of a medium duty was something like 500ft lb's. I understand that is in a medium duty truck, but i don't want to take the chance of turning my motor up and smoking a clutch in the first few months.

As dahoyle ponted out, . .your engineering a special application is out of the range of the parts guy's realm. Most "parts guy's" are just that, . . .parts guys, . .they know their way around the manual, computer, etc. and can find that part (once they figure out the part number) wherever it is on the planet. However, they often times are NOT mechanics, and certainly not engineers. What you need is one of those seasoned mechanics that works for an independent shop, whose hands are permanently the color of diesel soot,. . the independent shop guy will have the advantage in this type of situation because they are often approached with the similar question, . . "I have this, ..and this. ..and this. . .can you make it work?",, . .and because they have been in the trenches, . .there is a good chance they can point you in the right direction. . .

Autoworld in Montana does quite a bit of cummins conversions, you might give them a call. They have a website. There is a place back east in one of the Carolina's, M-Series Rebuild that repowers a lot of military vehicles, they have a website too, I think he would probably know. I think his name is Charles Talbert. Look up a website for a Dodge M-37 by garbee, he has lots of info on 4bt swaps. There is also a website for 4bt conversions that you might be able to get that info on. Hope this helps and good luck.

http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/...ead.php?t=3668

More info along the same lines.

I really do feel your pain, because it is something that I have thought about.

Currently have the complete GM adapter set to go with my Cummins, but the engine itself has a SAE3 adapter on it. Was thinking of using a Spicer or possibly a Roadranger behind it.

The info is out there, you just have to dig for it, and then question what you read. There is at least as inaccurate information from people repeating what they have heard, as there is good information.

Doug

Thanks, guys!

I was only trying to get a PN for ANY manual clutch fry wheel for the 4BT. I can work out a clutch for it from that point.

I understand that there are numerous combinations associated with these engines. No one - not even Cummins techs or customer service - can tell me which flywheel is for a manual transmission application. I've been to 6 diesel shops (two of which were Cummins service/dealers) and no one has a inkling of where to start to find which fly wheel will fit. That seems like a problem in how the information is presented from Cummins.

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As far a Cummins Customer Service - I haven't asked them to try to help me piece together my transmission/engine. I explained that their point of contact - their service center's mechanics - had no information on how to distinguish between the flywheels. They only had a series of options on parts that had no specifications as to application, size, ect. My question to them was: given the SAE#3 bellhousing and engine model - what is the appropriate flywheel for a manual tranmission?

What exactly does EPA regulations have to do with this question??? It was just an attempt to dazzle me with BS (and likely a stock anwser) that really got under my skin. Why not a simple,helpful answer like, "we don't actually help with problems, try contacting XXXX because the field mechanics don't have access to this information."
__________________________________________________ _________

I have cruised 4BTswaps and a couple other sites looking for solutions in the last couple of months - without success. You guys have thrown out a couple of good suggestion on where to look. I appreciate the information!!! That's my next route.

Snuffy

Again, the problem does not lie with Cummins. All they offer is the powerplant.

They are used by so many different equipment manufacturers in so many applications, that have absolutely nothing to do with Cummins, that there is no reason that they should or would know.

If you needed a part for your Case tractor, that just happened to have a Cummins engine in it, then you go to the Case dealer. Same thing if it's a Freightliner, or a Grumman box van. Yes, Cummins is a possible source for some of those parts, but aside from going from a known part number, to the parts bin, there is very little that they can do. If you don't even have so much as a CPL# or a recognized application, then why do you think they would know any more than you do? It is my understanding that there are close to 30 flywheel options for a B-series engine with an SAE #3 bellhousing.

As far as the EPA question, if is in fact quite a valid concern, altho I'm not sure how they could be drug into it if there was an issue with your build, all the 4BT's are designed with a CPL, and that has quite a lot to do with emissions. You cannot legally run an offroad 4BT in a vehicular application. They will even have a tag on the front cover stating if they are EPA/CARB approved for onroad or offroad.

Again, it does no good to bellyache about the system that Cummins uses. It's their system, so you need to learn to work within it. The truth of the matter is that you and your swap are not even a flyspeck on their windshield. They are setup to service fleets and large corporations, and people who know exactly what they want. I'm surprised that you have been given the assistance that you have, even tho it was unproductive.

Like i was saying, the simple easy fix is use the SAE#3, then get a flywheel and from a cummins powered dodge. Say a 95 3/4 ton dodge cummins with a 5speed. Get the flywheel from whoever, NAPA, Advanced Auto, you choose. and then call a clutch manufacturer and get an OE style clutch for that same year truck with the 1.5in on 10spline input. All done. The only thing i have not tracked down is the starter for the set-up. But i beleive the same year model dodge cummins starter will work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gun512

Like i was saying, the simple easy fix is use the SAE#3, then get a flywheel and from a cummins powered dodge. Say a 95 3/4 ton dodge cummins with a 5speed. Get the flywheel from whoever, NAPA, Advanced Auto, you choose. and then call a clutch manufacturer and get an OE style clutch for that same year truck with the 1.5in on 10spline input. All done. The only thing i have not tracked down is the starter for the set-up. But i beleive the same year model dodge cummins starter will work.

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I don't mean to dispute this, as I don't know for sure, but I find that highly unlikely. First, if it were that easy, then I'm quite sure I would have heard of it before. Never even heard a hint that it would work. I'm quite sure that the diameter of the Dodge flywheel is quite different from an SAE flywheel, so the starter location on the SAE#3 bellhousing adapter would not be in the right place for the starter to engage the ring gear. Also, how far back is the starter mounting location from a known loacation? You could use the flange on the crankcase as a reference, I suppose. If they are in different locations, then the same thing applies. No way for the starter to engage.

Also not taken into account is the thickness of the flywheel, and where it will locate the clutch plate. Those are the two main hurdles to that theory, and as I said, it is unlikely that they are the same. A little research could disprove it, but I really don't think that is necessary. I'm going to go on the assumption that it won't work. There are just too many variables to believe that it would. Even 2 different SAE#3 flywheels for two different applications won't interchange, for the same reasons. Even if the Dodge flywheel worked for one, it wouldn't work for another. So that magical combination that everyone is looking for, for the 3053 happens to be the most common application available, and somehow, everyone missed that little detail except you. Like I said, I'm not out to bust your chops, but that seems pretty unlikely. You will definitely need an SAE#3 flywheel to use the SAE#3 bellhousing adapter. The only question is, Which one?

Doug

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/d...ghlight=rt6610

Another informative link. See what happens when you search.

Granted, the Roadranger isn't a Spicer, but I'm guessing that the flywheel and presure plate would work. Clutch and throwout would have to be specific to the 3053 input shaft.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahoyle

I don't mean to dispute this, as I don't know for sure, but I find that highly unlikely. First, if it were that easy, then I'm quite sure I would have heard of it before. Never even heard a hint that it would work. I'm quite sure that the diameter of the Dodge flywheel is quite different from an SAE flywheel, so the starter location on the SAE#3 bellhousing adapter would not be in the right place for the starter to engage the ring gear. Also, how far back is the starter mounting location from a known loacation? You could use the flange on the crankcase as a reference, I suppose. If they are in different locations, then the same thing applies. No way for the starter to engage.

Also not taken into account is the thickness of the flywheel, and where it will locate the clutch plate. Those are the two main hurdles to that theory, and as I said, it is unlikely that they are the same. A little research could disprove it, but I really don't think that is necessary. I'm going to go on the assumption that it won't work. There are just too many variables to believe that it would. Even 2 different SAE#3 flywheels for two different applications won't interchange, for the same reasons. Even if the Dodge flywheel worked for one, it wouldn't work for another. So that magical combination that everyone is looking for, for the 3053 happens to be the most common application available, and somehow, everyone missed that little detail except you. Like I said, I'm not out to bust your chops, but that seems pretty unlikely. You will definitely need an SAE#3 flywheel to use the SAE#3 bellhousing adapter. The only question is, Which one?

Doug

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Well here is the thing, i am doing a 6bt/3053 swap. Second you saying a SAE flywheel, that makes no sense, SAE standards are for Bellhousing size, also which SAE? SAE#7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0? Some SAE #2 use a 13" in flywheel when you can fit a 14". Here is what i am going off of, you can get a ford F600/cummins motor with a eaton 5 or 6 speed. Mid 90's. Guees what? It uses a SAE#3 bellhousing and from what i was told by the parts supplier i spoke with, also uses a 13"flywheel. What a coincedence, a upgraded size for a dodge cummins flywheel is ..... TA DA!!!! 13". Buying a used one from them that would still have to be turned was $200. WHen i can buy one brand new from Valair for $250. Anyhow, have fun with the swap, and all you need to mate to the 3053 is a SAE#3 bellhousing on the back of the cummins. No adapter ring need, which the only adapter ring i know of is the SAE#3-#2 adapter. The big limiting factor of finding the write clutch set-up is that most medium duty clutches do not use 1.5in/10spline input. I spoke with the Program Manager of Valeo clutch and he only found 2 on the shelf, but they offer dozen's of larger shaft. As for the flywheel thickness. Not worried about it, there is tons of adjustment that can be made betwwen the pedal and throwout bearing. Just because you have not "heard" of it being done does not mean it can not be done. I will be back from Iraq in December to complete the swap and will be posting the pics when i am done. If you know of a way to do it, post it, PM me if you need guidance.

General Information for the cummins to 3053 swap.

This guy had to use a SAE#2 to use the 14" clutch. Notice the input shaft size.
http://www.sanco-bg.com/Conversion_NV5600.htm

SAE bellhousing sizes
http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/sae.htm

Guys talking about what is needed to place a 3053 behind a cummins.
http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/...hp/t-3668.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gun512

Well here is the thing, i am doing a 6bt/3053 swap. Second you saying a SAE flywheel, that makes no sense, SAE standards are for Bellhousing size, also which SAE? SAE#7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0? Some SAE #2 use a 13" in flywheel when you can fit a 14". Here is what i am going off of, you can get a ford F600/cummins motor with a eaton 5 or 6 speed. Mid 90's. Guees what? It uses a SAE#3 bellhousing and from what i was told by the parts supplier i spoke with, also uses a 13"flywheel. What a coincedence, a upgraded size for a dodge cummins flywheel is ..... TA DA!!!! 13". Buying a used one from them that would still have to be turned was $200. WHen i can buy one brand new from Valair for $250. Anyhow, have fun with the swap, and all you need to mate to the 3053 is a SAE#3 bellhousing on the back of the cummins. No adapter ring need, which the only adapter ring i know of is the SAE#3-#2 adapter. The big limiting factor of finding the write clutch set-up is that most medium duty clutches do not use 1.5in/10spline input. I spoke with the Program Manager of Valeo clutch and he only found 2 on the shelf, but they offer dozen's of larger shaft. As for the flywheel thickness. Not worried about it, there is tons of adjustment that can be made betwwen the pedal and throwout bearing. Just because you have not "heard" of it being done does not mean it can not be done. I will be back from Iraq in December to complete the swap and will be posting the pics when i am done. If you know of a way to do it, post it, PM me if you need guidance.

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For the sake of argument, let's consider any discussion of SAE to either a 2 or a 3. And yes, I believe I did say that in any given SAE size, that there were any number of combinations, some workable, and some not. I also know that some flywheels are flat, and in some, where the Presure plate bolts up, they are raised, sometimes looking like a large bowl. Yes, you can certainly account for the some of the throwout "throw" by making adjustments, but no, you have absolutely no control of the length of the input shaft or the input housing. How will you account for differences in those areas without taking the thickness of the flywheel into account. You can't.

You say that you are doing a swap, and I'll take you at your word, but I deal with this stuff pretty much on a daily basis, and I do know that there are any number of variables that you aren't taking into acount. You haven't even said how you were going to get your starter to engage. I'll give you a clue. Not all flywheels have ring gearsw with the same diameter and pitch, so unless the Dodge flywheel and the SAE #2,3 or whatever are the same, again, it isn't going to work.

Yes, I know that you don't need an adapter rign to go from a SAE #3 clutch housing to the Cummins SAE #3 bell housing adapter. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm not going to go out on a limb here and say that it won't work, but again, if it does, you are the only person on the entire internet that knows about it. Ask yourself how likely that is. I'm not trying to start a fuss here, but I don't think it will work, and I think that it is a dis-service to the members here to say that it will, unless you have it bolted up right now and are driving it down the road on a regular basis. Could work, but you are giving advise that you don't know for a fact is accurate. I find that to be somewhat irresponsible.


In any case, Hope you find yourself home soon, and thanks for serving. In the meantime, keep your head down.


Doug

One of the links you posted was previously posted by me in this same thread, and nopwhere in it does it say that the Dodge flywheel would work, One of them is a SAE size chart that falls into common knowledge category, And the other specifies that they used the following parts, none of them include a Dodge flywheel, and are not for a Spicer 3053, in any case.

FSO-6406A Trans-1.75" input

Gear Shift

SAE #2 Trans Bell Housing with Shift Forks

SAE #2 Flywheel Housing

Cummins 14" Flywheel

14" Pull Type, Single Disc Clutch

28MT Starter


I'm not sure how you use any of them as an example that what you are saying will work.

http://www.sanco-bg.com/FO-8406A-AWS...Comparison.JPG

I think that this image on the link you posted says it all. The flywheels are obviously a different diameter, but more importantly, there is no way that the starter ring gears are the same size. A starter installed in a flywheel housing for either one, would in fact, be impossible to fit up to the other. please explain how the SAE #2 flywheel housing that he used would work with that Dodge flywheel. There is also a visible difference in thickness, with the Dodge unit actually the thicker of the two.


Let me say again, this is not personal, but the information you are working from is in error.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gun512

General Information for the cummins to 3053 swap.

This guy had to use a SAE#2 to use the 14" clutch. Notice the input shaft size.
http://www.sanco-bg.com/Conversion_NV5600.htm

SAE bellhousing sizes
http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/sae.htm

Guys talking about what is needed to place a 3053 behind a cummins.
http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/...hp/t-3668.html

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I guess you misread...where does it say that i said it used a dodge cummins flywheel? Also a 5.9 out of a F600 with the spicer 6 speed uses a 173 tooth ring gear, so does the 8.3 as long as it is not the cupper version. Also, so does the 3/4ton and 1ton dodges! And from what i have been told from the heavy truck supplier the starters mount up the same. So before i buy $270 that i have to order from a big truck shop i will walk the 500yards to a parts store and get a 170 one. Another thing i have posted all of this before. Since you are obviously "Everbody on the internet" and since you have not heard of it, it can not be. Search the site a bit and you will see i have already posted some of my same findings. I am not posting one thing that i have not been told by a manfacturer or parts supplier that it will work. I specifically called SouthBendClutch. Maybe you have heard of them. And told them i wanted a medium duty clutch (spicer type) that would fit the cummins/3053. There response after not finding a clutch that would hold the tq ratings i wanted was that i could use the dodge clutch, just modified to the 1.5in/10 Spline input. So, call South Bend Clutch and tell them what a massive "disservice" they are doing. Until you post some factual data. There is no reason for you to post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahoyle

http://www.sanco-bg.com/FO-8406A-AWS...Comparison.JPG

I think that this image on the link you posted says it all. The flywheels are obviously a different diameter, but more importantly, there is no way that the starter ring gears are the same size. A starter installed in a flywheel housing for either one, would in fact, be impossible to fit up to the other. please explain how the SAE #2 flywheel housing that he used would work with that Dodge flywheel. There is also a visible difference in thickness, with the Dodge unit actually the thicker of the two.


Let me say again, this is not personal, but the information you are working from is in error.

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I specificaly said above that you could not use a SAE#3 bellhousing and a 14" set-up. Thanks for asking though

Another thing, show me some factual data that something will or will not work. I am going off of the people that i have spoke with. Project Manager of Valeo clutch, Southbend clutch, and i beleive the site is heavy parts supplier online. I would love to know the right way because i don't want to spend all of this money for no reason.

I'm done with this. You want to argue that you can use a Dodge Cummins flywheele, pleas go on with your bad self. I hope it works. I have my doubts, but , whatever. Until You have actually done the swap, as I said, it is totally irresponsible to recommend it as an easy solution to those who ask. Sounds like you want to use Snuffy as a guinea pig on your little experiment.

How can you say that the ring gear on the F600 with a Cummins 8.3 is the same thing as the Dodge 3/4 ton Flywheel. when You posted a link to a swap which totally disproves it.

As for posting up information of what will probably work, The link you posted would most likely work fine, depending on the input shaft length of the 5063.

Maybe someone could measure one and let us know.


The only point I'm trying to make, is that it isn't going to happen with a Dodge flywheel. Those pictures speak for themselves. I really don't know why you would want to use a 13", when there is perfectly good 14" for essentially the same price.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gun512

I specificaly said above that you could not use a SAE#3 bellhousing and a 14" set-up. Thanks for asking though

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Actually, you can. I'm not sure what you are using as a reference.

SAE #3 Is larger than SAE #2. so obviously, if a 14: fits in a #2 adapter, it will fit in a #3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahoyle

Actually, you can. I'm not sure what you are using as a reference.

SAE #3 Is larger than SAE #2. so obviously, if a 14: fits in a #2 adapter, it will fit in a #3.

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No sir, you've got that backwards. The lower the number, the larger the diameter of bellhousing.
http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/sae.htm
http://www.kemequipment.com/sea5.html

SAE#3 16 1/8 inches
SAE#2 17 5/8 inches.

Do some research before you post. "I ain't never see that done before" does not classify as research.
Like i had said before, the guys at ATT transmission (they bought out spicer/eaton) Specifically stated to me. "You can not use a 14" flywheel and clutch in a SAE#3". Otherwise i would love to use a cheap 14# clutch.