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So it's time for another update.
This is really more for the purpose of asking a question though.
I though I'd be replacing the IP this evening.
My question is should the line going to the IP from the filter be full of fuel at all times?
I pulled the intake and when I disconnected the rubber line of the inlet to the fuel filter it was empty. Only a couple drops of fuel came out. Either my filter is clogged of my lift pump is allowing the fuel to flow backwards?
Anyone have any input?
Still more to add to my escapade.
When I found no fuel in my line from the filter to the pump I decided before I go replacing the IP I'd see if my problem was actually a plugged filter. After all who knows how old that filter is. It came with the engine that had been unused for at least a year. I was planning on replacing it but thought it would work for testing purposes.
I ended up putting the filter from the old engine in and bled the lines. The engine started much easier and soon started running almost smooth. I don't have the intake on yet but after letting the engine run for a couple minutes I turned the cold idle off (it's manually activated with a toggle switch right now) and the engine idled without surging. I turned it off and let it set for around a half hour and tried to start it again. It's about 20 degrees here and with about 10 seconds of glow plugs the engine fired right up.
I will be testing it again in the morning before work. If it fires up easily I will be picking up a new rectangular filter on my way home from work. I was using a screw on cannister filter on my old engine but want to convert to the rectangular filter to save engine compartment space. The rectangular filter mounts in otherwise unused space anyways.
Also another problem I need to address is the starter is dragging on the flywheel during startup. I guess I'll be picking up some shims too.
Sounds like you may have found it.
I mis-type before. Meant to say pressurizing the crank case. A pressurized cooling system would be a symptom of a head gasket leak
Yes, the line into the IP should be full of fuel and pressurized if the engine was just turned off. As in fuel squirts out when you loosen the clamp. It sounds like you not only don't have enough fuel going in, you also have air going in.
When you wrote "running rich." Did you mean black smoke or that slimy hazy bluish smoke? I think your trouble probably is a steady fuel supply, but the black smoke is too much unburnt fuel and the bluish smoke is fuel being pumped through the engine and not even having a chance to burn because the cylinders are too cold.
Thanks Tim.
When I say running way rich I mean my eyes were burning from the exhaust. It wasn't black and it wasn't really blueish. I'm going to call it blueish though because it was definitely not black.
I'm wondering if my compression may be a bit low due to the engine sitting for a long time unused. Low compression could lead to blue smoke?
I want to take it out and run it but want to make sure it will get me home before I wander too far. I'm hoping that after getting the 4 ping glow plug relay wired and a new fuel filter I'll be ready to give it a good run to see if the exhaust clears up and the engine runs smooth.
I pulled the starter today. The Jasper engine came with a gear reduction starter. It had been dragging while starting the truck. I had another gear reduction starter that had the wrong nose piece and wouldn't bolt in. I swapped the nose pieces so I could bolt that starter on.
I figured out why the Jasper engine was running so bad. I decided to replace the lift pump because the line was empty from my fuel filter to the IP. When I went to remove the lift pump I found the hose clamp on the rubber line wasn't tight. My lift pump was sucking air. I tightened the hose clamp and tested my newly swapped starter.
The engine fired up and started getting smooth within a few seconds. The starter did drag a bit still though. I'll be swapping in the direct drive starter to see if that one drags tomorrow.
I let it get up to temperature and it was still blowing smoke. It did idle fairly well though.
The big disappointment for me is the oil pressure drops to almost 0 now when the engine gets warmed up. I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge I will be installing to verify my electric gauge is functioning properly. I'm hoping it's just a problem with my gauge. The engine had 50 psi at cold start on the test stand before it was installed. That was measured using the mechanical gauge. Now it only has around 30 at cold start using the electric gauge. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
I can't believe all the trouble you are having with getting a running 6.2.
Does your starter say "NO SHIM" on the nose cone? If not, it might need a shim or two. Buy a pack of them for about $100. Loosen both starter bolts and only pull the outside one. Slide a single shim in, test it and add or remove as you think it needs. Yes, you could pull the starter, remove the solenoid, bolt the starter back up, move the pinion gear out to the ring gear and then measure the gap.
I haven't been getting a lot done on anything because of the weather.
I don't see no shim anywhere on my starter. It doesn't seem to rub/drag nearly as bad anymore. I may let it be for a while to see if gets any better. It's really just barely noticeable after replacing the nose cone. I may try putting the direct drive starter in this weekend though.
I'm almost ready to take a road trip to get the engine good and warmed up but now I discovered I have no brake lights. I do have working 4-way flashers though so I know the bulbs and grounds are good. All lights were working before the engine was swapped.
I have an electric trailer brake controller wired up on my truck and I notice when I push the brake pedal that the light on the brake controller does light up. I am pretty sure my brake switch is good. I am using a CJ style brake light switch I installed to work off the brake pedal. I'll be checking voltage on wire number 75 to make sure I am getting voltage coming into the switch. I can then determine if I have voltage going out on 75a.
None of that wiring should have been touched while swapping the engine so I'm a little confused why my brake lights aren't working.
I've also been doing a little reading on some diesel forums. I'm still planning on installing my mechanical gauge to compare to the electric. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. It seems there are plenty of posts by people with the same problem I'm seeing. The oil pressure is ok when the engine is cold but drops when the engine gets warm.
Just a quick update to help me keep track of this project.
I had some time this afternoon to look into my brake light issue.
I had voltage on wire 75 so I tested my switch. It was intermittent. I then jumpered the brake light wires together and walked back to see if I had brake lights. I did not. While I was walking back to the cab I heard the circuit breaker pop in the three lever switch. I removed the jumper and heard the breaker reset. Hmmm... The only thing left that I could think to try was to disconnect my electric trailer brake controller.
That was it. My trailer brake controller was shorting out the circuit. I'm thinking it must just be a coincidence that it went bad around the same time the engine got swapped.
Oh well, at least I know what it is and it's an easy fix.
I installed a new brake light switch and left the trailer brake controller disconnected. I will add a fuse to that when I replace it.
My son took me for a ride around the block tonight to test everything out.
The smoke cleared up after about a mile. Oil pressure is good while the engine is making rpm's but still drops pretty low when we are idling at stop signs.
The other thing I'm noticing is the transfer case levers are riding further back than they used to. The transfer case actually engaged by itself when we were accelerating one time. And I hear a noise that sounds like a faint gear clicking as if the shift lever is constantly trying to engage the transfer case.
I finally took the time to pull the oil pressure sending unit and install my manual oil pressure gauge.
We went for a ride before I replaced the gauge and I was dropping to almost 0 on my electric gauge when the engine was warmed up and idling.
I took a ride after the gauge was replaced and was seeing 12psi at idle and up to temp. That's not good but certainly better than 0.
I have been doing a bunch of reading about causes for low oil pressure in a 6.2. Aside from the obvious of worn bearings it could also be the pressure relief valve or even a worn oil pump.
I'm planning on driving the Jasper until it pukes which I hope will take a long time but I am going to try and replace the bearings of my old 6.2 to see if I can get some good oil pressure on that. That is assuming the rod knock didn't destroy the crank or the rod.
12 sounds a lot better than zero Paul. Hopefully it hold out for you
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I love the sound and smell of diesel.
I've been driving my truck whenever I can for the last few months. But I hate looking down at the oil pressure gauge and seeing such low pressure at warm idle.
I picked up a 6.2 from a Cucv blazer last Monday. It is basically a short block with 60k miles on it (it has one head installed). My thought was to take the heads off my old 6.2 that has a rod knock and install them on it.
Today I traded my old work laptop for a well used (160k miles) 1998 6.5 turbo diesel engine. It is mostly complete missing only the starter and alternator. The crossover looks good and the down pipe is also good.
The engine came out of a truck that burned. The wiring harness melted on the engine so I know the engine compartment must have gotten pretty hot. I'm not really sure if any of the parts I want are good but I suspect they are. The rubber parts on the front of the engine look fine.
So now I'm trying to hatch a plan.
My first thought is to take my DB2 pump and lines from the old 6.2 and swap them on the 6.5 to get rid of the electric IP.
I've already built a stand and mounted the engine on it. I will be mounting a radiator and connecting it up so I can run the engine long enough to test the engine well before I bother installing it in the truck. I will be dropping the pan to check the webs for cracks before I go too far.
If the 6.5 doesn't pan out I will swap the 6.2 cucv engine onto the stand and install some heads and test it out. I've already dropped the pan and checked the webs.
I'm planning on getting some plastigauge to test the bearings for clearance on both engines regardless.
One way or the other I'm going to have a turbo in my truck.
When I was loading the 6.5 today the guy asked if I'd be interested in a sm465 with a NP205 attached. I ended up getting that for what I thought was fairly cheap at $145. It has a mechanical bell housing attached as well.
No plans for the 465 yet but I will be looking into adapting the 205 onto a 700R4 automatic. My 700R4 has a 208 attached. That is good enough for me, but if it doesn't look that expensive (or difficult) I may go for adapting the 205 to it.
Turbo and overdrive...woo hoo...
I sure hope the current 6.2 holds up 'til I'm ready to swap another engine in it's place...
It sounds like you have some options Paul. Good idea with the bearings and seals. You will end up with a solid one sooner or later.
You are getting all the good stuff.
I do not have experience going from the DB4 to DB2. However, I do have experience going from long injectors to short injectors on 6.2's. The lines are different. Threads are the same, but the angle of the lines at the injector end is different. I couldn't get them to screw together.
Just a hidden problem that will maybe test your patience I figured you should be aware of.
Thanks Tim.
I dropped the pan after I drained the oil. From what I can see there are no cracks in the block.
I got the intake off and the old pump off today. I got the DB2 bolted in. That's when I noticed there is not a timing mark on the 6.5. I'm assuming the 6.5 uses the computer to time when the pump fires?
I also got all the lines attached to the injectors. They definitely don't just bolt right up without a fight. I doubt I will get the straps attached to the bracket at the valve cover. The intake straps should be no problem though.
Something else I learned today is the GM turbo has an oil line attached to a plate where a 6.2 lift pump would go. If I want to keep a mechanical lift pump (assuming the mechanical lift pump will still work there) I will need to find another place to attach the oil return line.
For testing purposes I will probably just come up with an electric pump. I'd like to hear the engine run and watch what happens when it gets up to temperature.
The oil return could go directly to the side of the oil pan. Get one of those transmission pan drain plug kits B&M sells. Remove the center bolt and run your line to it.
Well I picked up a transmission drain kit this evening but I will likely be bringing it back. It has a 1/4" drain hole in it. From what I have read about return lines I need at least 1/2" return. That 1/4" restriction could cause the seals to blow in the turbo.
Now that I see how they are made though it looks pretty simple. I may try to make my own with pipe fittings. Or I may even get brave and try welding a bung in a spare pan I have.
As much as I hate to admit it I think I have figured out why my welding has gone down hill over the years. I was never a great welder but I could lay a nice looking bead when I tried. The last few years my welds haven't looked that good. What I finally realized is I can't focus my eyes up close any more. I need glasses to read and I need them to weld.
Are you using an auto darkening helmet? I have one but can see better with the full size gold lens
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I have three different helmets actually. I mainly use an auto darkening helmet. I can actually see best using it. The other two are just standard masks. One large window and one small window.
I have the same trouble with all of them though. My eyes just don't focus up close like they used to.
I haven't used a gold lense. What shade darkness is it? I may need to take a trip to the welding supply store?
The gold lens comes in 10-13 if i remember correctly
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Thanks George. I will try the gold lens.
I haven't been in the garage much the last couple of days. I've been working out of town. I did a 25 hour shift yesterday. I didn't work today because I was too tired.
I did start looking at options for my oil cooler. The 6.5 block has 1/2" ports for the oil cooler. That got me wondering if my oil cooler lines on my 6.2 could be causing me problems?
I have 3/8" lines from the block to my oil cooler on my current 6.2. Is that too small a diameter for oil cooler lines? How critical are the oil cooler lines on these engines? Would/could 3/8" lines negatively affect the oil pressure?
I found a thread on another site about installing a turbo on a 6.2. One modification they made was to bring their oil return back to the fuel pump mounting plate. I wouldn't have thought there was enough room but I was wrong.
I used 1/2" EMT conduit for my oil return pipe. It is only slightly smaller than the original return pipe. The original rubber hose clamps down on the EMT pretty well. I cut the pipe at an angle and welded it to the plate after I cut an oblong hole in the plate.
http://i62.tinypic.com/23rlb0k.jpg
I ended up using some JB-weld around my welds because I didn't have my drain pipe down quite as far as I should have. I had to grind off the weld at the top of the drain pipe. I also sealed the inside with JB weld.
That is so cool. Thanks for sharing.
I am not making very good progress on testing out my 6.5 turbo engine.
Being an electrician I thought it would be simple to bend up a short piece of conduit between the output flange on the turbo and my new drain pipe under the fuel pump. I spent a couple hours trying various routings. It turns out to be more challenging than I thought. The pipe coming out of the turbo is made at an angle. To keep the oil line away from the exhaust manifold I want to point the pipe away from the exhaust manifold. This makes it difficult to fit conduit because both pipes are pointing the same way. They both point away from the engine block.
Thin wall conduit does not bend well into a tight radius, It needs sidewall support to prevent the walls from kinking. An electrician uses a one-shot conduit bender to make a 90 degree bend in one sweep. That is fine for electrical work because a gradual radius is required by code. You can't pull wire through a tight bend easily anyway.
I am in the process of trying a plumbing 90. If that works I'll post up pictures.
I have also spent most of the day today getting a stuck glow plug out. When I tried removing the plug it sheared off with all of the threads still in the block. I didn't get a picture but it was stuck in there like it was welded.
I drilled it and tried an easy out. I don't know why they are called easy outs. They sure don't make the job easy. I drilled and tried every size of easy out I had. That glow plug was probably put in by GM in 97 or 98 and it was not coming out the easy out way.
I ended up finding a drill bit that fit pretty snug into the glow plug hole but didn't cut into the threads. I drilled the plug with a letter "R" bit. I called a few places and found out the NAPA distribution Center about 20 miles away had the tap I needed. I bought a 10x1.0 tap and tapped the threads back into the head. To get the tip of the plug out I had to drive it into the cylinder and fish it out of the injector hole with a mini spring claw. A little compressed air and a thorough vacuum and the glow plug fits in nicely.
I have also built an oil supply line. It is solid 3/8" line with standard flare fittings on each end. It is a female flare at the turbo and a male flare at the block. I put a 90 fitting on the turbo and pointed it toward the intake. I am wondering though why GM didn't do it this way. They used a flexible line with a 180 degree sweep at the end.
So now for a couple questions for anyone that has read this far.
Could I use a rubber hose for my oil return line?
Do I need a flexible line from the turbo to the block?
When I was at NAPA today I checked if they had any rubber line that could be used as a return line. I made sure to tell them that it needed to withstand hot oil continuously. They didn't have anything that big. The ID of the stock oil return line is around 3/4" or 7/8".
I have 2 vastly different turbo charged engines in my class room. A 6BT and a VW Bug flat 4. Both have braided steel flexible oil supply lines to the turbo. I will have to look tomorrow, but I am pretty sure both have braided steel return lines as well that are not near as big as you are writing about. I will look.
Thanks Tim.
I should clarify my dimension for the return line. The ID of the rubber hose is about 3/4" which allows it to fit over the hard line.
The stock '98 had a solid line routed near the exhaust manifold and ending just above the tube in the plate where the lift pump goes. They used a piece of rubber hose about 2" long to join the tubes together and held that on with hose clamps.
My plan was to use that same idea with a different routing and 1/2" conduit.
I did piece together a new line that uses plumbing 90s. It allows for a more compact installation but still doesn't look professional.
I may try building my own flange that comes perpendicular out of the turbo. It doesn't look like a complicated piece to make.
My pressure line has extra bends in it similar to the way a brake line does that allow a little flexibility.
Well I got the engine to fire up yesterday. It runs terrible. It belches black and gray smoke to the point I had to exit the garage after a short run time. It actually stalls out when I try to let it idle. It needs about half throttle to even run.
I started looking at the timing and realized there actually is a timing mark on the 6.5 that I hadn't noticed before. I tried moving the pump to align the marks but there isn't enough movement available on the pump to get them aligned. My pump is about 1/4" to the drivers side and is hitting the end of the slot in the pump.
When I compare the ds4 to the db2 the front of the pumps look pretty much the same. The timing marks look to be in the same relative position.
When I look at the timing mark on the 6.5 engine and compare it to the 6.2 they look to be in the same relative position.
So now I am at a loss. Why isn't there enough adjustment to align the timing marks?
I will be modifying my stand and adding a radiator soon. I plan to get this engine up to temperature so I can see what happens to the oil pressure.
But first I need to figure out why my timing is so far off. Is the pump gear in the 6.5 set at a different location? Is the gear off by a tooth maybe?
Well this is how I started my Labor Day weekend this year. I spent the day in my M715 yesterday and drove about 150 miles each way for this.
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps15674d7c.jpg
It was a long day but happened with only a minor hitch. I didn't get home before dark. This wouldn't normally be a problem except that I haven't finished my 12 volt conversion. What I mean by that is I haven't added a relay through my 3 lever switch to control my lights. The entire lighting circuit goes through the circuit breaker in the 3 lever switch. This hasn't been a problem when I don't have a trailer connected but with the added draw of the trailer lights I blow the breaker.
So on my way home my lights went completely out several times. There was no moon light either. When the lights quit I would pull over and wait for the breaker to reset.
After several times of dealing with that I decided to put the 3 lever switch from the M715 on my trailer into my tow vehicle M715. My plan was to drive on that until it blew the breaker and then switch it back. Sounded like a good plan except the switch didn't work!
When the lights went out the next time it finally occurred to me that I needed to reduce the load if I were going to get home safely. I pulled out one headlight and unplugged it. That dropped the load enough that I was able to make it home without tripping the breaker again.
I had the exact same problem with a 300 mile trip to pick up a 1975 cherokee. The additional draw from the trailer lights was causing the switch to overheat. I'm thinking of opening the switch and bypass the thermal breaker.
How did the truck tow?
I had a similar thought originally. I was thinking of up-sizing the breaker. I haven't researched that enough yet. My concern is that I don't know what the total draw on that circuit is yet and I don't know what gauge wire is in use on that circuit. If it is a 14 ga. wire the max fuse size would be 15 amps. Any bigger fuse and there is a risk of starting a fire. If the wire is 16 ga. then the max fuse size is even lower than 15 amps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel
The truck towed great. It didn't know the load was back there except on acceleration. The 6.2 in my M715 is still naturally aspirated. It took a bit to get to speed but didn't suffer with the gradual inclines once I was up to speed. There weren't any real hills between here and there.
I wouldn't attempt to tow that load if I didn't have trailer brakes though. I have stock axles and brakes.
I figured out I have one front brake that is adjusted slightly tighter than the rest. With the delay on my brake controller set like it is I will lock up one front tire before the trailer brakes kick in. But that only happened once when I was stopping fast.
Good to know info about the breaker in the three way switch.
I have to wonder if , when towing a Military trailer at 24 volts lighting, if this is also an issue.
I would "think" that being 24 volts, less amps would be drawn through the switch.
either way,
If this ever happens to me, I will know where to look immediately.
So far, I have not hooked anything else up to the stock circuit. ( nor do I have any plans to , especially now )
The only thing I can think of is the electric 24 volt fuel pump that comes on when the master switch is on... and this is not the 3 way switch.
Just an interesting quirk with these trucks.
I have to wonder if everyone that has had this happen, has converted to 12 volts....
If I had enough coffee already, 12 volts will pull twice as many amps through the circuit.
Good info on the trailer brakes and front brake adjustments as well.
By the way Jeeper,
Good on Ya for fixing it on the side of the road.
I know that experience sucked.
I hear Ya , and can see it happening... 3 times.
One last quick thought....
Since You are at a 12 volt system....
If You switched out to 12 volt LED's in Your lighting system....
Perhaps that would solve the issue and prevent forest fires.
The Headlights... I "think" will have to stay incandescent...
I dont think I've ever seen a LED headlight... but I live in a cave too.
EDIT:
I stand corrected:
LED Headlights
http://classicbroncos.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=158737
You are correct on the current draw being double at 12 volts. This is assuming I replaced all my 24 volt lamps with the same wattage 12 volt lamps. It also assumes a power factor of 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz
The equation is P=VxAxPF. P is power measured as Watts. V is electromotive force or Volts. A is amperage or current. PF is power factor.
If I switched out to LED lights I would likely reduce the load. But I would likely introduce another problem. I have an old school blinker relay in my truck. It works by thermal resistance. If I do end up with LED lights I will need to also install a solid state blinker relay to get the lamps to flash at a constant rate.
Although putting a relay for the headlights may be a better solution than messing with the factory switch.
Since the 3 lever switch in my latest M715 didn't work anyway I decided I'd take it apart to see how difficult it would be to clean/rebuild/upgrade the breaker. I found a pretty good write up about it here. The author suggested the possibility of bypassing the breaker and adding the fuse/breaker externally. An idea that I may pursue.
I took my switch apart and it is pretty bad. I am going to take some pictures. I have already cleaned it up a bit so the pictures won't show how bad it was when I started.
I will probably start a new build thread for the latest M715. This one will take quite a while to rebuild because it has major rust. I should probably just look for another cab but want the experience of the major body work required on this one. I hope I don't regret doing it.
Thats an excellent write up.
Those are pretty complicated.
I can see now, why they develop more resistance over time and cause problems.
I sort of like the idea of an external mini fuse, that you can get to.
A relay also... its just bigger to hide
http://pages.suddenlink.net/randygar...l-imgp3517.jpg
I am glad to hear your 6.2 did good.
I think you might just have a bad three lever. I have pulled 24 volt trailers behind my 12 volt M715 with a stock 3-lever, 12 volt trailers behind my 24 volt M35's and never had the problem with the breaker popping.
Based on what others have shared over the years. Once the breaker pops, it will do so at less load the next time and then less the time after, etc..
I'm just guessing here but that actually makes sense to me because the arcing that occurs when the breaker/thermal switch trips could cause some slight pitting on the contact points. When it cools down and resets there may be slightly more resistance in the circuit because of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrman
I would think it may be similar to the way the points on an ignition need to be cleaned/replaced occasionally?
I will be adding some pictures to my other M715 build thread. I have already modified the three lever switch from that truck but don't have it re-assembled and tested yet.
I ended up selling this truck today. It was a little sad. I am not too sad though because I still have an M715 to work on. And now I will probably be looking for a CJ or a Wrangler that the whole family can enjoy.
I ended up getting a decent TJ and still have some money left over. I will be using some of that money left over to make a few repairs. My wife hasn't seen it yet.
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6a7974f0.jpg