Here is the 1993 engine in the truck. Angle iron holding it up for now.
[IMG]http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1782/...tinthetruc.jpg[/IMG]
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Here is the 1993 engine in the truck. Angle iron holding it up for now.
[IMG]http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1782/...tinthetruc.jpg[/IMG]
We went ahead and put the front end on just to see how it looked:
[IMG]http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2511/...thfrontend.jpg[/IMG]
It looks pretty darn goofy compared to Pistolnut's truck in the back ground. Those are 32' tall tires on the 6BT truck. The 12.50-20's should look just about perfect in there.
Oh, the engine has some 1/4" angle iron c-clamped to the frame holding it up. It is about 4 inches too high and about 2 inches to far forward from where it is going to live. We needed to clean the floor and the best way to get the front end out of the way was to put it on the truck.
thats what mine looks like. sermis's is a little taller though. i also pushed the front axle forward an inch.
lower and further back is always a good thing for engine placement
Tim its looking good sermis is ready to drive it away lol
So the M35 transmission was keeping the motor from moving back any further? Interesting.
Joe,
It wasn't the transmission. It was the huge SAE bellhousing/rear motor mount back plate on the Cummins. Since it is made for a bigger flywheel, the starter is located waaaayyy out away from the engine and up compared to a stock Cummins. Even if we cut off the rear motor mounts from the bellhousing, I think the starter would still hit.
Then there is the turbo. The P7100 IP 6BT engines have the turbo down near oil pan gasket level and around the #5 cylinder front to back. So, even if we could have gotten the engine in all the way after much modification, the exhaust pipe would start about 2 inches in front of the passenger side M715 firewall.
We could have looked for a Chevy pattern rear engine plate, used the same bell that everybody uses to connect the 3053A to SBC's and made the engine/transmission fit just fine. Then the turbo would have been a problem. Then the front sump oil pan would have to be turned around along with oil pick up tubing. Basically, we could have "made" it work. But, since we had another engine 10 feet away, it wasn't worth the effort.
What did you change on your stock motor mounts ?
Do you mean on the 6bt truck? The stock motor mounts were cut off the frame by the previous owner, so we are starting from scratch.
On my truck with the 396, I used plates to connect stock 230 mounts to the big Block.
We have two 6bt engines to make one unit out of. The 92 model is the one going in the truck for a number of reasons already listed. However, we switched all the belt drives and accessories over from the '97 model to get a 24V alternator and the a/c compressor. That was all well and good until we put the front clip back on today for a test fit.
The fan is waaaayyyy to big to clear the front core supports and is further forward. Using this fan will mean a firewall cut for sure. There is enough room for a pair of electrics though. Once we took the fan off, we decided to see if the a/c compressor was far enough down to clear the hood. The hood for this truck is at my house, so we bolted on the hood from Pistolnut's truck.
Here is the hair or maybe a little less clearance we have:
[IMG]http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/241...hoodcleara.jpg[/IMG]
We will be lowering the engine another inch or so soon. Here is a shot of the truck with the hood on just to give Sermis something to drool over and for Pistolnut to see his hood and truck in the same picture for the first time in years:
[IMG]http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/793...thca715hoo.jpg[/IMG]
Oh, while we were changing out the belt drive stuff, we also peened the Killer Dowel Pin even though it was still where it was supposed to be.
All right, I have never had to figure out wheel back spacing for a custom set of rims before. Not knowing what to do, I just did what I thought was right. If anybody has any better suggestions, please post up.
The tires are Michelin 12.50-20 XL's. I mounted one up on a M34 rim just so I would have something to measure off of and the tire would be at its inflation size.
M34 rims are 8" wide the nearest I can tell with a tape measure. The same as regular M35 rims. If somebody has the actual measurements, again, please post them.
We started out by lifting up the rear of the frame, taking off one of the roll around the shop rims and fitting the 12.50 up and seeing how far from the frame seemed right.
Here is the distance we settled on:
[IMG]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/195...clearancen.jpg[/IMG]
You will notice the back side of the rim is even with the back of the brake rotor. The back of the brake rotor is 4-1/4" from the wheel mounting surface. Does that mean the back spacing needs to be 4-1/4"? Or do we need to figure it from the outside in to the wheel mounting surface at 3-3/4"?
Anyway, here is another shot of the same rim spaced the same to show the brake rotor relationship:
[IMG]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/858...testfitonw.jpg[/IMG]
We then did the same with the front. Turning the wheel full lock both directions gave 1/2" or more clearance from the spring. Here is a shot of the tire lined up with the back of the front brake rotor at full lock:
[IMG]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/358...5clearance.jpg[/IMG]
I couldn't get a picture of it because the tire had to be held in place and no part of my students can legally be photographed. But, this spacing has the outside of the tire exactly even with the outside of the fender flare or maybe just a hair wider. The engine was out for motor mount fabrication and getting these axles to flex is about impossible. However, I think making the rims to this back spacing or maybe 1/4" further toward the frame is going to be the answer.
you have it right on the backspacing. from the inside edge of the wheel to the mounting surface. from the outside of the wheel to the mounting surface is the offset.....i've spent too many hours looking at a summit catalog, the rest of my time i've just wasted.
The tire spec calls for an 11" wide rim. Think a wider rim will cause any problems with the 4.25 / 4.5 backspacing?
Let me know the backspacing you think is best and I will work on rims.
I will go out and measure the M34 rim since I brought it back home. But, I think anything wider for rim width will look goofy. The sidewalls are pretty much straight from the tread down to the rim.
I just went outside and measured. 11" wide tread, 8" wide rim and 50 psi in the tire. There is a slight crown to the tread, but I thought all XL's had that crown. Anyway, I will bring 4 with me Friday when I come up for the air show. A wider rim might make the tread flatter, but 8" is about what the tires are at bead to bead when they are just sitting not mounted on anything as well.
American Racing offers a wheel called "Mojave" in 20" x 10" wide. kind of military looking and iirc about the right offset. (2nd page center)
http://www.americanracing.com/browse_atx.asp
It is called a graphite finish, but it is more like flat black.
Did someone say Air Show? What Air Show do you refer to? Where? When?
in temple fri, sat, and sunday heres the link http://www.centraltexasairshow.com/s...?base:happy10:
Ok, in the lock to lock picture, you can see the center line of the tire is below the spring.
I know you can't articulate the axles, but you might want to figure in a little more 'fudge ' room.
Those are pretty stiff tires, so they shouldn't flex too much, but I could see a little rubbing going on in a couple situations. Basically boils down to how Steve is going to drive it.
As for the outside, I mostly ignore the sidewalls, just make sure the tread is the part being covered by the flares. That would give you a little more margin of error on your backspacing.
Just ordered the tires and wheels for my 715 project. After much deliberation have decided to use 42-15-20 Pitbull Rockers and 20x10 PSC beadlock wheels with 3.5 " backspacing. Due to the cost factors, only got 4, will need some sort of "spacesaver" spare..maybe a 35 or 36 on a 8 inch wheel.
Tim bring your hammer....
I spent almost an hour trying to get one of the 12.5 / 20's on a stock deuce rim. I can not get the ring on no matter what I try. On a bucket, held up with a hoist, on the floor, with Carson standing on the lock ring. Me cursing it, etc.
I think the tire is getting caught in the lock ring grove and not allowing the tire to slide down.
How did you get the tire mounted?
I have 2 riveted rims cut that are need welded to widen the rims one more dis mounted and one tire that does not want to come off.
This week is supposed to be a forced vacation for all teachers at my year round school. I don't have the time to take the entire week because of MV trips and Scout camps. So, I convinced the higher ups that I would do class related activities in my room if I could come in. Today was "Get the 6BT started" day.
I had a few gallons of diesel in a Gerry can and we set up a battery. It took forever, but we finally got all the injectors bled and fuel coming out the return line. To bad I forgot about the return line and wasted all that fuel on the floor before we could run it back to the Gerry can. Anyway, we got it to fire up and run.
A little blue smoke the first few times, but then it smoothed out and ran clean. No knocks or weird noises. The vacuum pump which is between the timing gears and the power steering pump is spitting oil. That could be a new seal or a new part. I haven't looked at it yet. The turbo spins free, without noise and puts out a lot of air. We can tell this because it isn't hooked to anything but the exhaust.
I tried about 5 times to get a video of it starting, running, revving and then turning off. I either screwed up the buttons on the camera, a student walked into the frame, a student knocked the fuel line out of the can or as the only usable video turned out. I didn't start it before I started the engine and the camera battery died before I could rev it. Two gallons of diesel doesn't go very far when the pump and lines are dry and the return line isn't hooked up from the start. However, here is the 6BT idling away sounding happy and ready to go down the road:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB_CZyFIIJU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrman
Nice! Music to my ears :rolleyes:
Tim are you going to see if the other motor will run or wait for another day?
I am hoping to try it Friday.
Well, we tried it. Hand pumped fuel through the pump and out the return line, hooked up a battery and got it to turn over real slow. Kind of like an old 6 volt tractor turning over. I tried a few shots of starting fluid, but it wasn't going fast enough.
I hooked the charger to the battery and it gave me maybe a second of normal speed before the charger kicked off. I don't have jumper cables in my class (security risk. Those things make great grapling hooks for fence climbing.) and not a dog bone either to make a 24V attempt at it.
Could that laundry truck have been 24V? 830 amp 12V battery just doesn't have the guts to turn the engine. I really didn't want to try a 24V attempt without letting you know a burned starter might be the result. I might try both batteries in 12V if I bring in some more cables too.
Oh, that huge power steering/hydraulic pump works really good at low rpm. It blew the duct tape right off. Along with the little bit of fluid still in it across the room.
Not sure if it was 12V or 24V. Do what ever you need. If the 12V starter is fried I will have to get another anyways. Will the starter from the other motor work?
They look the same and the bolt pattern looks the same as well. I had to cut short any more attempts because somebody got the idea the students need to practice getting on and off of a bus. "Hurrucane preparedness drills" or something like that. I just know a call came in telling me to send the students back to the dorms. I did, sat down at the computer and am going to go deliver a 300ZX to a customer with the M715 in another hour or so.
The welding teacher had to go to a meeting and wanted me to watch his students. I told him that if they came with a plasma cutter and a grinder I would watch them all week. Turns out we didn't need the whole week. Just two hours.
We cut the valence up and got the 31" Summit aluminum radiator to fit and the big 24" mechanical fan fit too! We have a little more grinding to do yet because the radiator can go down another 1-1/2" to be where it needs to be. Here are the two together:
[IMG]http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9...diatorandm.jpg[/IMG]
I need to bring the hood in to make sure everything clears. Then it is just a matter of making front end mounts, radiator mounts and figuring out what kind of crazy shapes the hoses will need to be.
I also got creative with a band saw and a pair of tin snips. Here is what is left of a 1993 Dodge stock air cleaner, housing and hose:
[IMG]http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7...rfilterrad.jpg[/IMG]
The picture doesn't do it justice. It looks cool across the room to see that tall truck and that huge air filter sticking up.
Oh, we tried the other engine with 24V yesterday and it spun super fast for about 1 second then went back to barely turning. I am convinced the starter is bad. I wonder if they pulled that engine instead of replacing the starter? When the front end comes off this truck, we will swap out starters and give it another try.
Have a picture from the front of the truck.
On the other motor I checked with Freightliner and was told the truck had 200,000+ something miles so that might just be the case.
Fan clutch and radiator look a little too cozy...or is it the angle?
i think its the angle Jon. mine looks the same way and i have almost an inch.Quote:
Originally Posted by brute4c
Tim, have you test fit the hood? the radiator looks way to tall from those pics. it sounds like its about the same size as the GM rad. i used in my truck. if that is the case, be prepared to get drastic with the plas and the frame
Ryan
Yes, there is an inch between the fan and the radiator. No front picture this week since we put the "handle with extreme care" radiator back into the shipping box for safe keeping and I will be out this afternoon getting Colton's cast removed.
We can lower it another 3/4" without cutting anything else up. I think the radiator itself is going to clear the hood. The filler neck is going to be the problem. We just Monday welded the little diagonal braces back onto the frame. If I cut them back off, we can go all the way down to the steering box since this radiator is just the correct size to fit between the frame rails.
I don't want to go that low yet until I put the power steering box on. I haven't put it on yet because I like being able to turn the wheel to move the truck around the class without power steering fluid squirting all over the place. I guess I need to get the hydroboost mounted up so we can run all the hoses and not have any leaks.
i dont really know how far top to bottom that rad is, byt here are some reference oics from mine
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l8...15/m715403.jpg
here it is with the hood shut
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l8...15/m715281.jpg
looks like you need to go down quite a bit
ryan
Ryanroo
Is that a 6.2? What radiator? My stock one will not keep it cool. I don't have a fan shroud. I need a fan shroud, make me one.
Nice shroud!!!
its a 454. the radiator is from a 77 c20 with a 454. i did some rather extensive mods to make it fit, but the temp needle will not get any higher than 190*Quote:
Originally Posted by sermis
the fan shroud works very well. with the truck idleing if you get to close to the front it about sucks off your shirt :)
thanks for the compliment snuffy
ryan
Sermis, I am using a Jeep CJ V-8 conversion radiator (aluminum) and it cools my Big Block just fine. It also fits in the same hole as the original. I'd think it'd do a fine job on a 6.2.
What kind of fand shroud are you using?
None. I have a Ford Taurus electric fan on it. It moves about 4500 CFM of air.Quote:
Originally Posted by sermis
i had planned to do something like Randy, theni realized i had the radiator i used, so it was free. i also didn't want electric fans, and i wanted to keep a long water pump on my BBC. that led to alot of cutting. but in the end i am happy with it all.
I just came in from pulling the power steering box from a 1987 firebird. An easy job isn't when the temp is 106 or so. I am going to sit in front of a fan until I have to go to work tomorrow now I think. We will clean up the box and see about pitman arm fit sometime this week.