I gotta say that I am impressed that you got back out there and are making another go of it!
Sometimes you just have to step away and let go of the frustration for awhile to see the larger perspective.
Good work sir! Keep at it.
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I gotta say that I am impressed that you got back out there and are making another go of it!
Sometimes you just have to step away and let go of the frustration for awhile to see the larger perspective.
Good work sir! Keep at it.
Thanks Brian!
I'm not sure my accomplishments amount to much more than knowing where to hook up a tow strap, though.
It's on hold until: 1. Some sort of inspiration comes over me. 2. Someone shows up at my house who knows what they're doing. Until then, it sits; I don't want to add "starter rebuild" to the list of expenses pertaining to that gear failure.
I rate both of these rather unlikely.
Not sure if this will be helpful at all or just annoying.
My dad has an m37 that he rebuilt the motor on years ago. He had trouble with timing when trying to do the first start up, after messing with it for a while it became apparent that a timing mark was off, 30 something years later and it's still a tooth off of the official timing mark but running perfectly.
He's not a vehicle mechanic by trade but he does know what's going on for the most part, meaning I think the rest of the motor went together correctly and he found an anomaly of some sort.
Weird things happen, possibly there were parts replaced in it's previous life that weren't quite right? I try to remember that story when working on things, think outside the box I guess.
The crankshaft pulley is mounted in rubber, it's possible that the outer portion has slipped and now the timing mark is off. Perhaps someone can post a picture of the timing mark in relation to the key way so you can see if it is correct. The engine has to be @ TDC on compression stroke, air pushing out the plug hole, and timing marks lined up, rotor button pointing @ #1 plug wire on the cap, also the rotor turns counter clockwise. It's much easier with the military distributor as they all mount in the same orientation and easy to tell if it's in wrong. If you are sure you know the orientation of the distributor body is correct and timing marks are correct, you could pull the oil pump shaft, turn the rotor pointing to #1 cap position and hold it there, insert the pump shaft and try inserting it until it goes in all the way mating with the distributor, will probably take several tries, verify the rotor is still pointing @ #1, of course you will have some adjustment of the distributor body to make small corrections. Might also be worth searching the net for pictures of the civilian distributor to get a general idea of it's orientation.
Thanks for taking the time...again!
I did not know that distributor turned CCW. I'll have to take some time to ascertain how this new development might be factoring into this whole FUBAR scene.
I'll have to examine the crankshaft pulley for evidence it has slipped on its hub I did use a strap wrench on it to either hold it in place or turn the engine over. I don't remember which.
In any event, I lined up the timing mark with the valve cover off in order to make sure the crankshaft was on the proper stroke, and cam & timing mark lined up properly, IIRC (lobe down, both followers on low part of cam profile, if that's correct).
I took a couple pix of the distributor orientation before I pulled it, but that has done me absolutely no good so far. An issue I keep running into is the mounting system on this distributor: a simple pinch clamp like I'm used to would allow this distributor to function regardless of clocking. Find the sweet spot, clamp it down. The stud-&-slotted-plate on this one restricts its orientation and has made finding said sweet spot a lot more difficult. Impossible, actually.
Alright, my heart rate is rising and I'm starting once again to be tempted by perversely satisfying scenarios of the Red Menace's sudden and explosive demise, so I'm going to step back from this question for the time being. I get ed off just thinking about it. Coffee doesn't help.
Anyway, I really do appreciate all your help (and everybody else's).
Stay well everyone.
Today I decided in an apparent need to obliterate the positive effects of a beautiful spring day to attempt to get my truck running. Again.
Some things left alone should continue to be. Let sleeping torments lie.
I found that I could turn the distributor any way I wanted with the distributor mounted. I pulled the rotor and found I could spin the shaft. I then pulled the distributor and found that its shaft does positively engage the slot in the oil pump, and doing so only slightly increases the effort needed to turn the shaft.
I have to conclude then that the distributor is ok, and the root of the problem is either with the gear on the oil pump, or perhaps the oil pump shaft itself (is the slot that drives the distributor machined into the oil pump shaft itself, or is it a separate component that is crimped onto the oil pump shaft, and has come loose?). I don't remember precisely what that end of the oil pump looked like.
Perhaps the problem is with the gear I replaced? I reinstalled the key before I fitted the gear, so that ain't it.
The only thing I know at this point is that my motivation to take the front of that engine apart yet again and buy another new gasket is below the threshold of detection.
If you can somewhat freely turn the distributor rotor( with the distributor body locked down) 360 degrees by hand something is wrong for sure. Should not be any need to remove the front cover again, to inspect/or replace the drive gear all you should have to do is remove the crank pulley. I would remove the oil pump and distributor first and give them a close inspection, something has broken free or stripped allowing the rotor to turn freely.
I don't know what's going on here-- that shaft did [I]not[I] turn freely before I moved the truck across the yard. At least I don't think it did, but that would explain a lot of things.
Thanks man. I think I'll start with the oil pump & see if the drive gear has come loose somehow.
Stay well.
Over this past weekend, it dawned on me that if I can get the 715 running, I could use it to bring the camper to the house from my buddy’s driveway. This would save me the trouble & time of removing the ladder rack & crossover box from my Dodge. It would also look cool.
With this new motivation, I attacked the problem with a methodical mindset...and finally found the problem.
First, I pulled the distributor and got my big screwdriver to check whether that oil pump shaft positively engages with the drive gear (thanks again M38!):
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...7cad9b035a.jpg
Indeed it does— no movement, no slop. Hmmm...
So I grabbed hold of the Lovejoy couple and the rotor, and tried to turn them against each other— no dice; nothing moved.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d2244644fa.jpg
Ok, maybe the tab on the distributor shaft isn’t indexing all the way in the oil pump slot? I installed it to check, after an eyeball alignment of the two, and -click- they meshed like they should.
I grabbed hold of the rotor, and with a little effort, I could tell the two were meshed, and then, with just a little more effort, I could turn the rotor freely.
Remember this?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f41705feab.jpg
I didn’t pay it much attention, and ground it flush so I could reinstall the distributor back in October.
Inspector Barnaby: “Use your head, Troy— what is the evidence telling you??”
After removing the distributor again, I held the rotor and the end of the shaft and twisted.
That roll pin somehow broke and worked its way partially out. It told me so months ago, but I ignored it. Now I just have to figure a way to get it out of there without a vise to hold the distributor shaft in place.
My dad— the best mechanical diagnostician I’ve ever met— is shaking his finger and head at me from the grave right now, saying “I taught you better than that.”
It’s true— he did.
Good job, keep at it and you will get it done.
Thanks man!
So, utilizing found objects and the proper tools, I got that pin out:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...35771a21ae.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3f9b01f54c.jpg
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A trip to the local hardware store & 66 cents later, I had two new roll pins in hand (I always buy a spare or two, a habit left over from living in Wyoming where the hardware store was a 50-mile round trip away).
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5c17e3c930.jpg
Done.
Now to get buttoned up & running.
How hard can it be?
Thanks, Jezza.
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Yet another round of optimism ground into the dust. :mad::mad::mad::mad:
I installed the distributor, verified TDC with the valve cover off, set the crankshaft to 5º BTC, installed #1 plug wire in the cap to correspond to the rotor position, and installed the other wires according to the firing order on the valve cover, CCW. Oddly enough, the wires were arranged to fire CW.
Anyway, all that resulted was either hard cranking or loud backfires. It seems I absolutely cannot make this truck run.
I quit while I was ahead because I'm all out of spare valve covers.
I'm going to get a compression tester from O'Reilly's, do a compression test, and if that comes out ok, offer to trade it back to Harry for the money I owe on the IH. He just finished his Terra, so he needs something to busy the hands.
If that compression test is bad (Harry suggested it because he thinks that grenade backfire last fall holed a piston), I'll see if he'll take it plus cash. Either way, I'm done with it: I simply don't have the time to continually vaporize with one disappointment after the other trying to figure out how to make this truck of some use. It's like getting back together with the worst girlfriend I ever had.
Verify you on #1 TDC by taking out #1 spark plug, hold your finger over the plug hole, as you rotate up to TDC verify you have air pushing out. It's easy to think you are on #1 TDC when you are not.
I verified it with the position of the #1 cam lobe and the marking on the pulley: Cam lobe straight down, both rockers loose, "0" on the pulley lined up with the indicator line. I found early in this adventure (November?) it was easy to end up 180 out with the #1 piston & timing mark both fooling me if I didn't pull the valve cover & verify cam position.
The pulley keyway was undamaged, as were the keyway in the crankshaft and the key itself, the rubber dampener is in serviceable condition locating the pulley securely, so I really don't have any reason to doubt the veracity of the timing marks embossed thereon.
Don't know, man.
Appreciate the help, though.
Wow...a first and a real head scratcher put to bed...bout time it got resolved...not for lack of effort though...GREAT job being persistent!!
I appreciate the kudos, Jon, but at this point that & a buck will get me a cup of coffee, if you know what I mean.
How did it run with the firing order on the distributor cap reversed?
How did it run at all I wonder?
I'd really, really like to have this running by the weekend so I can haul my camper. Apparently, it's Memorial Day, and it snuck up on me.
When the beer the wears off I'll realize it'll be a bunch easier & quicker to remove the ladder rack & box from the Dodge, haul the camper that way, and let the the M715 harmlessly collect leaves and other airborne detritus like it has been for the last six months. It's just better that way. Blood pressure stays down, stuff like that.
The masochistic glutton-for-punishment part of my brain got the bright idea that maybe I could make this distributor work:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9f92b28f8a.jpg
It came with this engine and I thought maybe I could make it work. Apparently, it’s out of a 232. Unfortunately, I didn’t see a way to clamp it, so I gave up on it. It doesn’t take much these days.
That stupid part of my brain then had the idea that, since the military distributor didn’t have vacuum advance, I’d delete it from the one I have, like so:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3357237b1c.jpg
I checked the rotor position again (crankshaft was at 5° BTDC, right where the manual says it should be), adjusted the distributor so the rotor was dead on #1.
Fifteen seconds of cranking, and the battery— an Optima Blue Top from 2016— died after being on a charger all night.
Move the Dodge, hook up the cables, crank it. It sounded like it almost wanted to run (it should just @#$&* RUN where the manual says to time it, right??), and then it backfired like usual.
I then went to O’Reilly and Advance Auto for a compression tester so I could have just a flicker of hope of getting this thing out of my yard. Neither had one, so no satisfaction there. Or anywhere pertaining to this thing, really.
I apologize for the whining tone these posts inevitably take when I find yet another way to not fix this truck. It is intensely disappointing and demoralizing, and I hope you can understand.
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This is the place to complain and seek answers. I've never seen a board of better advice and good guys willing to not be a jerks to help out. This is like a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle mystery getting to the bottom of the problem.
Keep at it Nailhead. You will get it running.
What’s the secret to the Indian rain dance?? Don’t stop dancing till it MFing rains!
Love it. Thanks guys.
I'm going to remove all plug wires, review the firing order from as many sources was possible (maybe it's incorrect on the valve cover?), set it to TDC compression once again (valve cover off), find #1 by rotor position, and then reinstall the plug wires according to firing order. Beyond that, I have nothing more that I can double check.
I have questioned the effect of clocking the distributor shaft in the Lovejoy, and determined it wouldn't affect timing as long as the rotor is set to fire on number one after setting crankshaft position.
I questioned the effects of oil pump drive gear orientation, and have to check that again, though I seem to remember it doesn't matter: it drives the same direction however it's installed.
I questioned whether I installed & clocked the oil pump shaft correctly, and I remember double-- even triple-- checking that.
I even questioned whether my starter spins the wrong way, making the engine run in reverse. This would explain why the plug wires were installed in the cap with the firing order (as seen on the valve cover) clockwise. I discarded this after I took into account that the truck has four forward speeds, one reverse and not vice-versa.
So, if it doesn't run after this last effort I'm afraid I've got no more cards to play.
Attempt #...oh, who knows at this point.
First task was to verify yet again that I had the distributor timed to fire #1 at 5° BTDC compression:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...51a68b1d12.jpg
Yup.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f0fbd02b29.jpg
And yup (it’s hard to photograph, but that cam lobe is essentially straight down). Rockers nice & loose.
Next, marked the #1 hole on the distributor cap with a black Sharpie (wish I’d had a paint pen), dead on center. Then I match-marked #1 on the distributor body so I could position that rotor dead on #1.
I then removed all the wires from the cap (except the coil wire):
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...64174b08c2.jpg
And then I started over using the firing order from the valve cover and several online sources (trust with verification at this point).
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After all the ignition wires were in and secured, I hooked up the Big Iron:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...cb9a678981.jpg
Feeling really nothing but the slightly nauseating foreboding of backfire awareness, I gave it half choke and turned the key, and it started so quickly it took me an instant to realize it was actually running.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8577e05dd0.jpg
Victory...
I probably need to fine tune the timing, but that’s basically got it.
I’d normally be pretty much euphoric (and I do feel like a weight has been lifted), but I’m so tired from work & bad sleep that it’s not coming right now. No annual Memorial Day camping trip (@#$&* Covid!) has got me down, too.
Lessons learned?
First and foremost, I neglected to be methodical, choosing instead to assume important things and then get bent out of shape when my assumptions proved faulty. This the most important takeaway from this, and realizing I disregarded this repeatedly is another reason I’m not dancing around pumping my fists in the air Kirk Gibson-style. Kind of a hollow victory.
Second, and a revelation of its own: that rebuilt water pump with its new bearings has really made a difference in engine smoothness. Now it feels like buttery-smooth like an inline six should. It’s no wonder that front cover leaked oil with all that vibration bolted to it.
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Great news, I think we all knew you could figure it out.
Well, I'll cheer for you! I think it's great you got it started up!
Its alive!!!!
Congratulations!!!
Makes me very happy to read this. Yes, it is a great feeling when successful.
I started my truck this weekend. Unfortunately, I have not driven it for about a year. But I start it frequently and it brings a smile to my face when it starts right up.
To share some of your misery, when I got my truck, it was supposed to have been running when parked. (You know how that goes). Long story short, it almost started, backfired, farted and just didn't run. The two center cylinder plugs were interchanged. Could it be that simple???
It was and prior to starting the second time, I appealed to this forum and they insured the direction of rotation of the ignitor. Smoked a lot from sitting but ultimately, ran nice.
Again, Congratulations!!!
Good work sir! Get out there and use the heck out of the truck!
Thanks guys!
I'm going to go retrieve my Alaskan camper out of a friend's driveway later on today.
Way to go!! Very glad you figured it out!! Now go enjoy the heck out of it!!
Thank you!
The result of yesterday’s trip:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a50ab86a85.jpg
I can’t say I enjoyed it much because it started raining on the way, and we had to load the camper in a driving rain. I haven’t been so soaked since I worked in the oilfield years ago.
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