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that don't count it has three wheels
Back to the real world.
After careful measurement this morning and some more careful measuring. The cat is 36" front to back without the fan on the front. If I cn figure out a way to tuck the radiator and fan into the core support the engine will fit without modification to the firewall. It will be tight as hell, but it will go in. I am going to a salvage yard today to look for a radiator with a trans. cooler built in that will fit the bill today. We shall see what we can find. I am also still short a np205 transfer case. If anyone has one that they are holding, I need it, I can't find one! This project will grind to a halt pretty quickly once the drivetrain arrives without it. so put your feelers out and run me one down. Snakeater
Quote:
Originally Posted by snakeater
You can take this advice for what I paid for it, which is Zero, but I would find a radiator support from a V8 J-10, Wagoneer, or Cherokee, and locate an appropriate radiator for it. The difference is that the radiator opening is wider, and the radiator which fit are wider as well. You are putting a lot of engine in there, and it will need a lot of cooling. it would be foolish in the extreme, to not use the best components possible, since you have already committed to the engine. The wider radiator is a swap that has absolutely no negative compromises. Do it. Additionally, I would not cool the tranny with the radiator. It is a big commercial transmission, and it will be expensive to replace/repair, if you don't do the work yourself, so give it a fighting chance, and run a separate cooler, and filter for it.
Slow down a little. You are talking like you need this thing up and running next week. Take your time, and do things right. Your project will not grind to a halt without the T-case. You have about a million little things to iron out. You can mock up the location, using the NP200. it is essentially the same case, with a few small changes.
I guess what I am saying, is stop right there, and don't buy any more parts, til you have an idea what you need. You have been shotgunning the forum about advice on this axle or that, this engine and tranny or that, etc, for some time. You have seemingly settled on an engine and tranny, which is good. It is also enough for now. You do not, I repeat, do not, want to go spend a lot of money on parts that you may end up not using, so slow down. You are almost certainly going to have to replace your axles to get any highway speed out of that thing, so little details like passenger or drivers side drop will dictate what t-case to buy. Additionally, details like exhaust routing may well play a part, ie it might be best to run a drivers drop case, if the exhaust routes on the passengers side, or vice versa. Not a lot of room to snake a 3 or 4 inch exhaust inside the frame rail if the t-case is already taking up all the room.
Take a deep breath, and relax, and sit down with a pencil and paper, and start detailing what you want, what the obstacles are, and how best to avoid them.
I'll try to find some drawings I have of the J-10 frame, which will help you scale things.
Porkchop has a divorced 205 with 32spline yokes for sale. (do i get a finders fee since I am keeping your project from grinding to a halt?)
I'm not in a hurry to get it done. Far from it actually. I am talking through the process to make sure that I have all my bases covered. I don't like loose ends. I won't be unprepared. It would be nice to have everything laying in the floor so that when I get start with the fabrication I don't have to stop until it is done. I bobbed a m-35a2 last year in three days. It went quickly because i already had a mental game plan, all the parts I needed, and knew what had to be done. When we got started we didn't stop, except when I had to repair a broken airline that was damaged in the reinstallation of the bed. Point is projects go quickly at my shop, I like to get things done. I will not compromise on quality of parts to make this swap happen quickly by any means. There are going to be loose ends with this project and that is what makes me crazy. I find it better to post ideas/thoughts here than have them floating around in my head. You are correct about the radiator and the trans cooler needing to be separated. However, I am going to use an independant cooler and the radiator trans. cooler if at all possible. I am simply concerned with space. I believe there is a radiator that already exists that will fit my needs, just have to find it. If I don't find it I will have it made. After a long discussion with a veteran caterpillar tech, I have concluded exactly what you said. It needs lots of cooling area to be effective. That is the reason for running the seperated system. I think that my stock core support is plenty large enough to contain the radiator that I am looking for. You can never have too much cooling surface area, I know this. I will use the largest radiator that will physically fit, then apply electric fans effectively to make it cool properly. I appreciate the ideas and opinions please keep them coming. I plan to document this build so that if someone else gets a wild hair they can follow in my footsteps. Snakeater
I thought the purpose of a forum was to bounce ideas around so that people who have more or better experience could help with the decision/application of said ideas. Didn't mean to "shotgun" the forum. I am highly motivated, can't help it. Hyper may be a better word. If I am offending anyone or stealing thunder from someone else than by all means I will digress. Thought this was the place for it. Snakeater
Well, Like I said, I just don't want to see you buy something you can not use. I have been messing around with these sort of projects for 30 years, and have learned that there are to rules that everyone will come up against.
1st, A plan will save time, money, sweat, blood, and tears.
2nd, No matter how well you plan, there are going to be things you didn't account for.
The idea that you are concerned with cooling, as it relates to space, and then discounts the idea of using a wider cooler, just shows that you are in a hurry. Width, in your particular swap, only benefits. There is no downside, other than an invisible deviation from stock, for all but the most discerning observers. You have to buy a radiator, so get the biggest one you can. Hell you can probably pick up a radiator support for 75 bucks.
I'm going to quit preaching, but you are not planning. You are reacting.
My point about shotgunning was not meant to be an insult. It was meant to show a pattern, and that pattern is reaction, not planning. You ended up with a transmission that you thought was OD, when a simple check of the facts would have shown you otherwise. Now, you get to react to that decision, by running different axles.
There is no point in asking questions, if you don't take the time to listen to the answers. If you have a money tree, Then go ahead and start buying parts and put them in the corner.
You may or may not end up using them, as the thing progresses.
I'm curious, when you say 36" for the engine, are you including the Flywheel adapter in that?Quote:
Originally Posted by snakeater
point taken. I do not have a money tree. This also isn't my first rodeo. Far from it. I made the decision to go with this engine with complete disregard for the transmission. I got the transmission as a freebie with the engine. I knew that it would require concessions to use it, I accepted that and moved on. If anyone has interest in this project they can email me directly--------I will post on it again after all the decisions have been made and the project is completed. That way it can be properly scrutinized. I made the mistake of thinking that people on the forum would be interested in the build from conception to completion. Sorry. Snakeater
I am very interested in it and will follow up via emails/pm's and wish you the best with it and will help you if you need feel free to pm/email or call.
FL^
On second thought I will continue this build thread on here as long as I see fit. If you think that I am going to fast or not planning properly then by all means feel free to come here and do it yourself. Barring that, keep opinions on my work/planning skills to yourself. I will continue with the method that has served me for quite a few years now. Thanks for the advice, it wasn't needed or called for. Any other advice concerning anything other than this build can be directed to my PM box or email. To all that have added constructive criticism and help, thank you and keep it coming. Snakeater
You mean constructive criticism that you don't find offensive. I have gone out of my way to answer every question you posted, with good honest information, but now, it is apparently worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by snakeater
Somehow you feel that since I offered advice that you didn't specifically ask, that I am being somehow rude.
So, for the record, In the last 1-2 weeks, you have gone between a Powerstroke, a 6.2 GM, a 4BT, a 6BT(FWIW, I informed you at that time that the Allison was not an OD, so no, you don't heed advice, or you wouldn't have bought the exact same tranny a week later thinking it was) and finally a Cat3116 with an AT542. You have switched between Rockwells, Super duty axles, and I don't know what all else. That is your plan. An engine fell in your lap, so you "plan" to make it fit.
In the interest of using the Allison, which I am all for, by the way, I detailed some of the obstacles and solutions which I have encountered, again, not worth my time. Additionally, I have answered your specific questions in PM. Guess that wasn't constructive. Funny, you seemed to think that I was knowledgeable enough when you were PMing me for details
I'm sure that your skills far surpass mine, and obviously your superior knowledge of industrial/commercial components is totally beyond mine.
I sincerely wish you luck on the build. I hope that if you have any additional questions, you will swallow your pride and ask them, but I don't see that happening.
Understand just one thing, I didn't come on here to boost my ego, or put anyone down. I may have come on too strong, but the simple fact of the matter is that all I know of you is the posts you have made, and the questions you have asked. I offered good advice, in good faith, and you want to turn around like a petulant schoolgirl, well that's good with me. You are obviously smart and talented enough, that all your requests for information must have just been bids for attention rather than earnest requests for advice, so I will save my time and attention for someone who needs it.
Guys,
Final warning...because we are all adults here...
If you have a dispute, take it off the boards and settle it in private...personal disagreements are NOT tech.
Thanks in advance.
Awwww heck Brute, just when it was gettin' good!
Another concern with this plan is that, from my limited knowledge on cat engines, the 3116 borders on rubbish - isn't that the one they put in things they wanted to sell cheaply, built to last a week past the end of the warranty period? From what I've heard, especially if you try getting useful amounts of power out of it, the life expectancy is very, very poor in on-road applications.
--Randy
I don't think so, as it is hard to find a used 3116 cat for sale
that doesn't have 300K miles on it. They still bring a shiny penny with that many miles. The 3116 is also the engine in the m35a3 is it not? I have three diesel machanics that I trust here locally telling me it is a great engine. I do know that some cat motors were junk, apparently cat put their name on perkins engines for a while and the quality wasn't up to snuff. Snakeater
Keep the questions coming - at least they are new and interesting and not the usual "where can I buy wheels" or "who has lockers?"
When it comes to cooling you want to set yourself up for success. Never too much radiator IMO. I didn't want to swap out the radiator support either (lazy, not cheap :) ) so I unbolted & turned around the pass side support and used that as a guide to trim out the sheet metal. Gets you about 4" wider in 1/2 hr. Still a lot of room in front of it for an intercooler too - routing the hoses might be a pain, but not too bad. Add a Rhino grill no one would know it's there.
I'd go with a trans cooler in the radiator for the winter when you want to warm up the fluid quicker - I would add an aux cooler though because heat is the main killer for an auto trans.
these allison transmission are reported to be tough as nails. One tech told me not to worry about a cooler at all, but that is crazy talk. When the truck is diassembled, I plan on maximizing all the space that is there. radiator is the first problem, if there is room, an intercooler is the second. Also relocation of the batteries from the cab to the bed i think. My truck has a puny little under dash heater that needs attention at some point. I have access to a early wagoneer for parts, but I am not sure I will have room for a civi heater once the cat goes in. may have to get creative there.
I want to retain the stock look of the truck wherever possible, but I can't help thinking that a pair of 6" exhaust stacks in the bed would be very nice. Something about black smoke pouring from them under load that makes me happy on the inside. snakeater
That is a good tip for the Rad support. I have several old Jeeps so I just swapped out the support. Either will work fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by BBM715
I will comment on the idea of cooling the tranny thru the radiator, and again, people can take it for what it is worth.
According to Allison, and their specs and documents, preheating of the fluid(assuming Dexron III is used) is not necessesary above -13*F. Even running 15/40 in the transmission will allow temperatures down to 5*F without preheating. Unless you are running straight weight oil, heavier than 30wt, then there is no need to preheat the oil in TN. I didn't just pull it out of my arse, I have the paperwork and documentation to back up everything. Additionally, Allison calls for a maximum pressure drop across the external coolers/filters, of 35PSI. Now, I don't know what the drop would be, using the tiny diameter cooler in the radiator, but I know that added to an external, and a pair of external filters, it is going to be more that if it was plumbed as it was designed to be plumbed. Personally, my choice would be to minimize the restriction, using the largest filters and coolers possible.
FWIW, the data I quoted is real, it is free, and it is available on Allison's site.
Correct me if I am wrong, but all the cutting to the core support to fit any larger radiator is all well and fine, but you are still limited to the small hole the M715 has in the front anyway, right? Only a certain amount of air can find its way in that opening. That is unless you swap out a later 70's J truck grille, and core support as suggested above. Then you'd kinda lose the M715 distinctivness.
Actually, the M715 and the J-truck share the same stamping for the front fascia. There have been small changes over the years, with the addition of tabs for attaching the various grills, and the later model ones are not as refined and smooth(wrinkles around some of the bends and curves) because they were intended to be hidden behind the grill, but the overall dimensions, including headlight openings, and grill opening have remained essentially unchanged since 1963. There have been changes in the radiator supports, the most notable, being that the older 6 cylinder versions had the radiator offset to the drivers side, with the corresponding reduction in overall width of the radiator. On the V8 supports, the radiator opening is centered behind the opening in the fascia, and extends the full width of the opening. The difference amounts to roughly 15% more surface area.Quote:
Originally Posted by randyscycle
There is a small difference in the radiator support, between the M715 and the J-trucks, where the inner fender openings were enlarged, but if you have the original M715 version to use as a pattern, it is easily copied. Additionally, there is a small difference between the M715 and J-truck fascia, where the flares are attached.
FWIW, BJ's offroad, offers a very nice Brass 3 core V8 radiator, as well as a really nice crossflow aluminum version. I believe Griffon makes an aluminum radiator that fits as well, and they may well be the manufacturer of the BJ's offering. If my memory serves me, that is the one that Poolmike used in his build.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...Picture015.jpg
A pic just for grins that shows the practical limits of pushing the radiator forward. Figure it gives about 1 or 2 more inches of room for the engine. I have no idea what that radiator was sourced from.
I plan on opening as much space as possible then taking the parameters to a friend who works for BE COOL radiators. Surely they have something high flow that will work for my needs. If not it can be made. I am not opposed to cutting the firewall to get the clearance to install a radiator that will keep everything cool. Cutting the firewall will however be the last resort.
If you are going to give up the bed space for the stacks anyway why not just run a bed mounted radiator like the serious mud runners use? You could make it as big as you wanted with a huge transmission cooler too.
Randy - there is about 6" between the grill opening (which is pretty big to start with) and the radiator. Plenty of room for the incoming air to spread out, lose speed, and more effictively cool the radiator. I would be more worried about getting the hot air out of the engine compartment. With all that motor and heat I think he will end up having to vent his hood like Spicer did. You like the look of cowl induction don't you Snake? lol
Venting the hood definitely does help in many applications, if you don't mind a hole in your hood. I'd use a Waggy hood to perform surgery on though and keep my original.
I had a couple XJ's and they would literally run 10 degrees cooler with a pair of vents in the hood. Chrysler LeBaron turbo vents worked very nice too......
Spicer and....I cant think of his member name...guy in Thailand...have both used a reverse scoop placed on the passenger side toward the rear to lot heat out...
Now that I think about it, Gwen just ha a flat grilled area over there that helps hers stay cool:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1502/bettyli0.jpg
Barry had the cowl induction looking raised area in the center of the hood...raised the rear of the hood a good 2 inches in the center section that is already raised over the outer parts factory. He did a fantastic job of getting that done and it worked well to remove heat.
I had a pic somewhere...but I cant find it now.
cowl induction......that's kinda cool sounding?? I think that cutting a couple vents into the hood is a doable thing. To release air pressure? Is that basicall what I am understand ing, so that air can pass more freely through the engine compartment? Logical. I think the radiator in the bed is a little over board, maybe not. I will put it in the last resort file. If I have no other alternative I may do something like this. Snakeater
off the subject of heat:
Since you're going w/a CAT motor, I think it should be manditory for you to convert to tracks...
you know you want too...:D
not a chance. I will have my belly full, and a headache with the project ahead already. No need for further complications. Snakeater
Basically you got it snakeater...the hood vents allow for more air flow through the compartment and reduce underhood temp a lot.
that may very well be something that has to happen. My engine bay will be pretty full. It may require it to cool correctly, i will go ahead and start planning for that. what about venting out of the fender area between wheel well and the firewall? Not as effective? Snakeater
Dont know that anyone has done that...
I think people have worked with the heat rises so cut at the top AND less restriction to airflow means more flow so top seems it would flow better.
Cant hurt the aerodynamics much either way really... :)
these trucks have aerodynamics? Cool one less thing to worry about.......:DSnakeater
Along the lines of letting hot air out, there is a lip on the left and right side of the hood, which sort of slots into the fenders.
Some folks over on IFSJA have reported success, by bending it up flat, and allowing air out between the fenders and hood. Can't say for sure how it works, as I have never tried it, but it looks promising. Figure it would amount to an 1/8" gap, roughly 3 feet long, on either side.
The deuces all have louvers in the inner fender wells. Maybe for extra cooling?
Thanks Jon, you are right of course. It was Barry (anyone here with that truck that could post pics?). Tom had that little scoop facing the windshield.
As for the vents up top I would thing it is more of an air flow management thing than just hot air rising. The air should be moving along too fast for that to matter. You could skid plate the entire area under your motor/trans and put a couple of air deflectors at the back to cause a vacuum - literally sucking the air out of the engine bay :)
The vent on top works with rising heat when at idle...at speed, it is just a convenient place for air coming in the front to get out...short straight path...like an intake port should be...
OK, I'll give you the at idle thing, but I really like the skid plate/ vacuum thing. Why, once you hit 80 or 90 and that... Oh, I just thought of a problem :) lol
Louvering the inner fender doesn't work so well from what I've heard. Great idea to keep the exterior sheet metal looking stock though. I was never sold on Barry's cowl vent idea. I seem to remember that he was happy with the result, but the idea of a cowl vent is to let air INTO the engine compartment, not out. Again, this is assuming a much higher average speed than a 715 would normally achieve.
Dahoyle would you have a pic of that. I understand what you are saying, I just cannot picture it in my head.