hummer103 : What Trailer to Pull a M715?

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by elwenil on Oct 20, 2006, 3:12pm

40Grit, we use the same chain come-a-longs when we tow sometimes. They are about the only thing that will hold up to all the mud and odd rigging we have to do with some trucks. They work fine as long as you keep the brake adjusted and DO NOT lubricate it at all. Keep it clean, but don't lube anything. If it gets tight and rusty, break it free by pulling something with it a little if it gets stuck or take it apart. We've had some let go because some monkey sprayed WD-40 or some crap in one and it gets in the brake. Also there is a pin or something that can let go and the handle will reverse under load. This is the part that will break under shock load. Wrapping the remaining slack chain around the handle and the tensioned chain to prevent this from happening. It may not be the safest way to pull something, but we've done it for years without incident for many many years. Even with a few accidents caused by dumb drivers we have never lost a load while using the chain come-a-longs.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 20, 2006, 4:10pm

THOSE ARNT COME-A-LONGS THERE RATCHET LOAD BINDERS ?????????

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by brute4c on Oct 20, 2006, 4:13pm

PICS!!!!!

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by kwai on Oct 20, 2006, 4:54pm

Mark, what were you using?

This is a ratchet load binder:

http://www.northerntool.com/images/p.../152987_lg.gif

This is a come-along.

http://www.mytoolstore.com/app/144d1.jpg

This is a chain puller:
http://www.mytoolstore.com/app/735c.jpg

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by kwai on Oct 20, 2006, 5:01pm

I just got some of the ratchet load binders to replace my lever load binders.

Question: With the lever load binder, I always wrap the chain around the handle to prevent it from opening. Is there something equivalent you need to do to a ratchet load binder to prevent it from loosening?

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by xjchief on Oct 20, 2006, 6:02pm


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">xjchief how can i find those pics?</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Here's a link to his website with the pictures. I talked to him on the phone once a while back about his decals- he's a great guy so I sure he'll be happy to discuss the towing with you if you email him.

http://www.davidallenracing.com/M35A2done.htm

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 20, 2006, 6:15pm

KWAI, NO THEY WONT BACK OFF. I USED THEM FOR 25 YEARS HAULING SINGLE COILS UP TO 50,000 LBS. NEVER A PROBLEM

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 20, 2006, 6:16pm

DONT USE A CHEATER PIPE ALSO OR YOU,LL PULL UP YOUR TIE DOWNS, PROMISS

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by 40grit on Oct 20, 2006, 11:33pm

the thing you are calling a chain puller, we refer to them as come-alongs or chainfalls...but yes, #3....
the hook snapped before the rachet assembly even though about backing off...actually, if we put another hook on it, it still works even after taking well over 10 times what it was rated for...

El is right, their enemy is someone who doesn't know how they work , or worse, thinks they can improve them...

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by 40grit on Oct 20, 2006, 11:38pm

kwai, I'd still wrap the loose chain around the the tightened chain and handle, if the extra chain swung in just the right spot, it could release the latch and theorectically allow them to loosen...chance of it actually happening, very , very small, but still a chance...



so here's another question, when do you replace the chain and binders?
-a certain amount of time, say 5 years
-after a heavy shock load, just for safety's asake
-when you can't tell what the original color used to be anymore...

We ship and receive a lot of stuff, some of these truckers chains and binders look older than me, I'd much rather trust a new chain fall than some of the rusty stuff I've seen hooked up...

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by beast on Oct 21, 2006, 10:16am


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">67beast posted some pics from last christmas of his M35 pulling his M715...</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.davidallenracing.com/DSC04032.jpg
http://www.davidallenracing.com/DSC04031.jpg
Yep, the trailer is a 20 footer. 18' with a 2' dove tail. My 715 fits on it fine and has been towed all around the state on it. These pics were from a Christmas parade I was about to head out too.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 21, 2006, 2:05pm

you can never wear out a ratchet binder....... i used mine for 25 years hauling coils of steel 50,000lbs each ...... i kept them oiled never had one losen up , never broke a hook ........ and it dont matter where the lever is , fwd or reverse it wont loosen on its own........
bob

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by jeepkaiser715 on Oct 21, 2006, 3:08pm

Thank you Xjchief!
Beast, thank you for posting the pics! i am curious as to how you hooked the trailer up to the truck? is the height of the trailer 36in or did you lower the pintle? thank you for the pics! i love your set up its exactly what i want to do with mine

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 21, 2006, 7:13pm

THAT IS A SUPER NICE RIG SET. AND LOOKS LIKE HE KNOW HOW TO SECURE IT TOO....

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by gimpyrobb on Oct 21, 2006, 8:10pm

Bob after reading your insight on the ratchet binders, I will be using them in the future.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by beast on Oct 21, 2006, 9:22pm


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">Thank you Xjchief!
Beast, thank you for posting the pics! i am curious as to how you hooked the trailer up to the truck? is the height of the trailer 36in or did you lower the pintle? thank you for the pics! i love your set up its exactly what i want to do with mine</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.davidallenracing.com/DSC03797.jpg
It has a 2" reciever added under the pintle. The rear of my deuce it different because it had been converted to a dump bed. I ran an extra set of rear composit lights and wiring on the trailer so that I can hook up to the 24v with the deuce and run one set or hook up to the original set for towing with my Superduty on 12v.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 21, 2006, 10:30pm

NOTHING WRONG WITH LVER BINDER BUT YOU GOTTA BE CAREFUL WITH THEM WHEN YOU CLOSE OR OPEN THEM. I NEVER HAD ONE OF THEM FAIL ALSO. THOSE YOU WRAP THE CHAIN AROUND THEM FOR SAFETY. I STILL USE THEM ALOT PROBABLY MORE THAN MY RATCHET BINDERS BUT I DONT TRUCK ANYMORE AND THE MOST I TIE DOWN IS A VEHICLE OR PARTS. I,VE SEEN THEM HURT SEVERAL PEOPLE BAD THOUGH AND SEEN EM SLING CHEATER PIPES ALL THEY WAY ACROSS THE LOADING BAY..... EVERYBODY WANTS TO OVER TIGHTEN THEM AND ITS NOT NECESARY. WHEN YOU GOT ALL THE SLACK OUT OF A CHAIN ITS AS TIGHT AS ITS GONNA GET. ALWAYS CROSS ( X ) CHAIN A VEHICLE FRONT AND REAR. PULL FRONT END BACK AND PULL REAR END FOWARD. NOT LIKE IT SHOWS IN THE REAR OF THIS DUCE PHOTO

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by beast on Oct 22, 2006, 8:29am

http://www.davidallenracing.com/DSC03795.jpg
The chains were crossed in the front. I don't like to cross the rears because I feel you can keep better tension on the vehicle with straight pulls versus angled pulls, simple mathmatics. The front is crossed to keep the vehicle from shifting side to side, especially where it has the most wieght (motor). The rears are for keeping everything in place, especially during braking. Also when I trailer a normal vehicle, I hold everything down from the axles to allow the vehicles suspension to naturally absorb the bumps during travel. This also prevents from hitting a large bump and causing the suspension to compress and loosen the bindings.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 22, 2006, 2:37pm

I CHAIN THE AXLES DOWN BUT ITS IN MY OPINION TO X CHAIN FROM SPERIENCE

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 22, 2006, 5:56pm

SIMPLE MATH ?? WHAT KEEPS THE LOAD FROM SHIFTING SIDEWAYS IN THE REAR ? ALSO SAME WITH FRONT WHEN YOU DONT PULL X CHAINS TO THE REAR. CAN MOVE SIDEWAYS OR TOWARDS THE FRONT, SAME GOES FOR THE REAR CANT GO SIDEWAYS OR TO THE BACK. THERES A REASON FOR X CHAINNING. DONT THINK IT CANT GO SIDEWAYS. FIRST THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GET IN A WRECK AFTER TAKING CARE OF THE INGERED, DOT COMES QUICKLY AND ANILIZES THE WRECK, CHECKS YOUR SECUREMENT, TAGS FOR WEIGHT BEING HAULED IF OVER 19,001 LBS GROSS YOU GOTTA HAVE COMMERCIAL LICENCE, DOT PHYICAL, BE ON A DRUG TESTING PROGRAM, MVR RECORD CHECK ON SITE, SAFETY CHECK, DRUG & ALCOHOL SCREEN RIGHT THEN OFF TO A HOSPITAL, ETC. BE READY THEY ARE !!!!! I,AM DONE. GOOD HAULING TO ALL, BE SAFE LIFES DEPEND ON IT SAME FOR YOUR WALLET , AND YOUR FREEDOM IF A PROBLEM ARRISES.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 22, 2006, 5:59pm

OH AND YOU KNOW YOU NEVER MAKE A LOOP IN A CHAIN LIKE THE GUY DID ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE REAR OF THAT DUCE RIGHT ?? LOOK HOW ITS FREE TO MOVE ...

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by beast on Oct 23, 2006, 12:03pm

Simple math what holds more weight, something pulling in a straight line, or something on an angle! Like I stated, I like to use the rear bindings to hold back the weight of the vehicle. I my not worried about the rear of the vehicle sliding around on the trailer,because the tension of the bindings keeps it pulled down. Remember, I'm trailering my 715 on a 20' car hauling trailer, so the lenght of the rear bindings is only about 5' total length from the axle to the tiedown cleat. I'm not streaching bindings 20' on a semi trailer.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by hummer103 on Oct 23, 2006, 1:24pm

Well, thanks lots of input when I was away for just a few days.

Called up a trailer dealer here in CT and had them quote me on this great 20' 12K Goose:
http://www.cttrailers.com/trailers-c...-gooseneck.htm

Was kinda shocked at the $4,800 base price and not in stock

In Stock:
18' w/ 12K for $3859 rated at 9990lb for a non CDL
They also had an 18' and 20' with 8K capacities for $3400 and $3700 which also seemed pretty steep for not that heavy duty of a trailer.
Most of these trailers were 81-83" between the fenders which were removable.
-Just thought Id post some prices for some comparison
Scott

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by aaron871 on Oct 23, 2006, 9:08pm

12K with the fenders cut off......

http://koanwood.com/gallery/Callalan...5/IMG_0003.JPG

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 23, 2006, 10:31pm

AARON, IS THAT A RECIENT PHOTO LOOKS LIKE YOUR GONNA NEED THE M715 VERY SOON.......
BOB

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by pistolnut on Oct 23, 2006, 10:43pm

There is a lot of good info and thoughts here. Here is my .02 worth. I have hauled construction equipment and vehicles on 16' trailers and on 18 wheelers most of my life. I have a scar on my forehead from the failure of a breakover or lever action type binder which broke on me. I don't use them anymore. Ratchet binders are the way to go; they are more expensive, but they won't back off and if they were somehow to fail, they won't take you out with them. I would never use a cable come-a-long to secure any kind of load--ratchet straps are better and safer but when hauling vehicles or equipment chains and ratchet binders are the only way to go in my book. I might consider a chain come-a-long in a pinch, but you have to consider the rated load in respect to what percentage of the load hauled it will be securing.

Bob Cowen is absolutely right about you going to jail over an inadequate tiedown job and an accident. You may think it will be fine, but if the unthinkable happens and something happens because it is determined that you didn't dot all the i's and cross all of the t's you not only go to jail for negligent homicide or manslaughter, you also get your pants sued off by the victim's family. This is serious business folks.

If you are going to tow stuff, spend some time getting familiar with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations. Even if you are not a commercial vehicle (over 26000# gross(thats gross registered weight, not what you are actually hauling)) you will be held to this standard for tiedowns, cargo securement, etc. Most states don't have regs about this because they use the federal standard. I've quoted some excerpts:

? 393.128 What are the rules for securing automobiles, light trucks and vans?

(a) Applicability. The rules in this section apply to the transportation of automobiles, light trucks, and vans which individually weigh 4,536 kg. (10,000 lb) or less. Vehicles which individually are heavier than 4,536 kg (10,000 lb) must be secured in accordance with the provisions of ? 393.130 of this part.

(b) Securement of automobiles, light trucks, and vans.

(b)(1) Automobiles, light trucks, and vans must be restrained at both the front and rear to prevent lateral, forward, rearward, and vertical movement using a minimum of two tiedowns.

(b)(2) Tiedowns that are designed to be affixed to the structure of the automobile, light truck, or van must use the mounting points on those vehicles that have been specifically designed for that purpose.

(b)(3) Tiedowns that are designed to fit over or around the wheels of an automobile, light truck, or van must provide restraint in the lateral, longitudinal and vertical directions.

(b)(4) Edge protectors are not required for synthetic webbing at points where the webbing comes in contact with the tires.



And:? 393.108 How is the working load limit of a tiedown determined?

(a) The working load limit (WLL) of a tiedown, associated connector or attachment mechanism is the lowest working load limit of any of its components (including tensioner), or the working load limit of the anchor points to which it is attached, whichever is less.

(b) The working load limits of tiedowns may be determined by using either the tiedown manufacturer's markings or by using the tables in this section. The working load limits listed in the tables are to be used when the tiedown material is not marked by the manufacturer with the working load limit. Tiedown materials which are marked by the manufacturer with working load limits that differ from the tables, shall be considered to have a working load limit equal to the value for which they are marked.

(c) Synthetic cordage (e.g., nylon, polypropylene, polyester) which is not marked or labeled to enable identification of its composition or working load limit shall be considered to have a working load limit equal to that for polypropylene fiber rope.

(d) Welded steel chain which is not marked or labeled to enable identification of its grade or working load limit shall be considered to have a working load limit equal to that for grade 30 proof coil chain.

(e)(1) Wire rope which is not marked by the manufacturer with a working load limit shall be considered to have a working load limit equal to one-fourth of the nominal strength listed in the Wire Rope Users Manual.

(e)(2) Wire which is not marked or labeled to enable identification of its construction type shall be considered to have a working load limit equal to that for 6 x 37, fiber core wire rope.

(f) Manila rope which is not marked by the manufacturer with a working load limit shall be considered to have a working load limit based on its diameter as provided in the tables of working load limits.

(g) Friction mats which are not marked or rated by the manufacturer shall be considered to provide resistance to horizontal movement equal to 50 percent of the weight placed on the mat.

Tables to ? 393.108
[Working Load Limits (WLL), Chain]

See the chart here: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul.../fmcsr/393.htm

? 393.108 How is the working load limit of a tiedown determined?

Anyway, my .02 worth. I've seen enough to say don't shortcut this stuff. Read the laws, spend the money and time, and do it right. You will never have to apologize to anyone for doing this right and safely....

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by 40grit on Oct 24, 2006, 12:32am

Clint, thanks for that link, I figured the law might spell out some required stuff, but here's what i find on the above link for securement devices...I hope I'm missing something...

? 393.102 What are the minimum performance criteria for cargo securement devices and systems?


(a) Performance criteria. Cargo securement devices and systems must be capable of withstanding the following three forces, applied separately:

(a)(1) 0.8 g deceleration in the forward direction;

(a)(2) 0.5 g acceleration in the rearward direction; and

(a)(3) 0.5 g acceleration in a lateral direction.
so, if we assume a m715 weighs 6000#, you need securement( at least 2 tiedowns) capable of withstanding roughly 4500# going forward and 3000# going sideways or backwards...not the toughest standards to live up to..3/8 wire rope is enough for 2 of the standards...

Wire Rope (6 x 37, Fiber Core)

Diameter mm (inches) WLL kg (pounds)

7 (1/4) 640(1,400)

8 (5/16) 950(2,100)

10 (3/8) 1,360(3,000)

11 (7/16) 1,860(4,100)

13 (1/2) 2,400(5,300)


that explains why I get scared when I see how most of the loads on the NAFTA trucks coming up from Mexico are tied down... I think we need stricker standards that this...

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 24, 2006, 4:04am

I USE 5/16THS G70 TRANSPORT CHAIN AND LEVER BINDERS IN 99% OF MY HAULING NOW. ON MY NEW TRAILER I,AM HAVING TIRE STRAPS MADE HERE LOCALLY THAT WILL ALSO GO OVER THE TOP OF A M715 TIRE AND COME PARTWAY DOWN THE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE FOR ALL 4 TIRES IN ADDITION TO THE CHAINS. IF I GET IN A WRECK I,LL KNOW WHERE EVER THE TRAILER ENDS UP THE M715 WILL BE THERE ALSO EVEN IN A ROLLOVER, SIDE IMPACT AND REAREND HIT. I ALSO USE A 2 5/16" BALL WITH 3/8THS " SAFETY CHAINS X,ED ON THE TOUNGUE.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by beast on Oct 24, 2006, 11:46am

I don't see anything in those laws requiring that the bindings be crossed. It states that the vehicle must be secured to keep it from lateral movement. Remember this tread was started to talk about what trailers work well for towing a M715, not how to tie one down! I have yet to be critical of how anyone in this tread transports their 715. That's fine if you don't agree with how I secured mine, make a post and go on, there is no need to go on post after post about it! This is my last post in this thread because it has straied so far away from the actual intended question. If BOB wants to continue this then send my a PM about it!

edit by admin to make a bit nicer

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by pistolnut on Oct 24, 2006, 11:31pm

40grit, great observation. The rules were a bit clearer a couple of years ago. The FMCSR book is revised every couple of months these days. The minimum standards aren't much in my opinion either, but they are a guideline and something to build on.

Beast, you're right about the lateral movement. There are few specific rules about how to accomplish this because there are a lot of acceptable methods. I personally would use only two chains (5/16" or 3/8") on an M-715 to tie it down. One on the front pulling forward with the load distributed across the axle or springs and one likewise in the back or possibly across the pintle. On a heavy vehicle like a deuce, I would cross chains to pull from the passenger side of the deuce to the driver's side of the trailer and vice-versa and use at least four chains and binders. No rule about this that I know of but a good general practice; I've had cargo move on me before when I thought I had it tied down pretty good. You live and learn what works best. Talking about suitable trailers pretty naturally leads to tying down IMHO, sorry for any offense.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by robertcowan on Oct 25, 2006, 7:23pm

A CHAIN ON THE FRONT PULLING FORWARD ??????????/

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by kwai on Oct 25, 2006, 9:34pm


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">PULL FRONT END BACK AND PULL REAR END FOWARD. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Bob, I have never seen a truck tied down this way. This is exactly the opposite of how I tie down my trucks and how I have ever seen a truck tied down. Can you show me a pic of what you mean.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by gimpyrobb on Oct 25, 2006, 11:42pm

I think he's sayin, Put the chains on the front, pulling towards the back of the vehicle and vise versa.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by kwai on Oct 26, 2006, 6:59am

I know what he wrote. I have never seen a vehicle tied down this way and I think it would be difficult to do on most trailers.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by barrman on Oct 26, 2006, 8:31am

Guys, lets just accept this as another subject where we all have our ways of doing something and aren't going to change no matter how much somebody tries to shove another method down our throats.

This exact arguement gets repeated about once a year. I think it is usually the same people mostly invovled too. We all know to take tying down a vehicle serious and that criminal prosecution could develop if we screw up or even death to us or others.

I should lock this thread, but I want to see Bob's pictures too. So, unless you post pictures with a short discription of them, lets let this thread fade away.

Thanks.

Re: What Trailer to Pull a M715?
Post by hummer103 on Nov 20, 2006, 11:22pm

I started this Thread about a month ago before I moved, and just finally getting internet seeing how it ended in some differences in opinions, but overall thanks for all the feedback. A few pics are attached of mm towing my Jeep on a 18' 9000 GVWR equipment trailer from Connecticut to Arizona in 3 days. Hard to see but I went with 4 G70 chains and 4 binders Chains crossed, front axle pulled, rear pulled foward. Checked every time we stopped and never made and adjustment. She was heavy but my massaged cummins pulled like a train. Its not a perfect trailer but it was as close as I could find in the time I had.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6...ler3xw2.th.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/922...ler1nd1.th.jpg
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8...6170rm0.th.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/554...6169sq0.th.jpg